Author Topic: Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem  (Read 2456 times)

Offline DREDIOCK

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2005, 03:20:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sable
P-51 pilots actually made a habit of burning most of the fuel out of the fueselage tank on climbout before switching to the drop tanks  


And the option to do exactly that is already incorperated in the game
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Offline gatt

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2005, 04:46:58 PM »
Touche' .... (sp? Straffo?)
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline TDeacon

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2005, 04:56:01 PM »
So, Drediock, Straffo, etc.,

Since one can deliberately burn the fuselage tank first, then go to drop tanks, why not let them take off that way?  Same result in the end, except that it saves wasting player time flying in circles in the rear areas while the fuseage tank is used up.  

I see this as yet another effort to restrict the game play of others, in order to gain advantage for one's self.  Perhaps analogous to the current effort to perk yet another plane (the Spit XVI).  

BTW, these days, I do not usually use drop tanks or take off with partial fuel, and have not yet used the Spit XVI online, so I am relatively impartial.  :-)
« Last Edit: November 20, 2005, 05:00:26 PM by TDeacon »

Offline straffo

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2005, 05:10:09 PM »
"Touché" Gatt ;)


TDeacon I don't see the link with the game play ?
AH is certainly the best flightsim on the market but some design decision are surprising.


To conclude my next proposition will be to scale down altitude, for pilot not patient enought to wait for combat altitude.

Now in AH  for 1 foot climb IRL their will be 2 feet climbed in AH.


Look stupid ?
Probably as stupid as the curent fuel multiplier.

Offline gatt

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2005, 05:17:47 PM »
TDeacon, not at all. It is just something I'd like to see fixed becouse, again, it is unhistorical and unfair.

A La-7 or C.205 pilot has to t/o with 100% fuel just to be able to get one sector away, fight and come back. Those fighters, if jumped, have to fight with the fuel they got in the hanger. No more no less.

Many other dont have to do that. They simply can drop their ext tank and fight with 25 or 50%.

You can take off and burn whatever you want first. Our marvellous loadout system allows you to do it. *This* is historical.

Restrict the game? C'mon ... this is not a silly perking debate. I've been flying my 1943 C.205 for 5 years, so perking "this or that" has not ever been an issue for me.

EDIT: restrict? Just the opposite: ppl gaming the fuel would have the opportunity to learn how their real heroes flew their rides   :)
« Last Edit: November 20, 2005, 05:32:31 PM by gatt »
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline Widewing

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2005, 05:34:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by gatt
TDeacon, not at all. It is just something I'd like to see fixed becouse, again, it is unhistorical and unfair.

A La-7 or C.205 pilot has to t/o with 100% fuel just to be able to get one sector away, fight and come back. Those fighters, if jumped, have to fight with the fuel they got in the hanger. No more no less.

Many other dont have to do that. They simply can drop their ext tank and fight with 25 or 50%.
 


When was a Flight Engineer in the Navy, we never topped off the tanks of our C-118s unless we actually needed the gas. Most of the time we flew with aux tanks empty as well.

As concerns the La-7, there is little difference in performance between 50% gas and 100% gas as they didn't have much capacity. However, for the American fighters, with 5 times the combat radius, it is a severe liability to expect them to fly with full tanks with hundreds, even thousands of pounds of unneeded fuel.

As far as historical goes, the MA is not remotely historical. Plus, we have the fuel burn set at 2 (twice real burn rate). If the fuel burn rate was 1, there would be little or no manipulating fuel loads to maximize performance as 50% internal would more than enough for the long range fighters.

I see nothing wrong with adjusting fuel loads to suit the mission. I suggest it would be better to petition HTC to change the burn rate rather than penalize players because their fighter has longer legs than some others.

My regards,

Widewing
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Offline gatt

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2005, 05:54:29 PM »
No one wants to penalize long range fighters. Actually, they do have 3 internal fuel  options plus (in many cases) various types of drop tanks.

Are long range fighter pilots able to choose between *one* of them? Without choosing the unhistorical and, let me say, ridiculous, 25% or 50% + drop option? I hope so. Macchi and La pilots have to choose carefully each take off. Are they more skilled? Dont  think so.

Now, it seems to me that the possibility to fight on equal terms is scaring someone :)
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline Kweassa

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2005, 06:03:18 PM »
So if the MA is ahistorical, why do we even remotely expect any of the planes and stuff to even look like WW2 planes in the first place?

 Let's get the facts straight -- AH is ahistorical because there's no way to become fully historical in the first place. There's no such thing as an exact recreation so the developers try to pick one or two most representative features of the warring environment and use it to give the feel and aura to the game. However, there's no denying that a certain essential ethos of the game is purely dedicated to the historical WW2, and if it is deemed possible, being realistic and historic is ALWAYS preferred over being unrealistic, 'gamey', or 'dweeby'.

 It's a simple thing.

 Flying with something like 50% + DT is basically, unreconcilably dweeby and gamey. No matter what kind of wording you use to describe it, it's just as gamey stuff as Lancasters deckbombing at 1k alt and spraying bombs all over the place, or the insta-AA bombers on the ground. Sure, both cases may be technically possible, but they are also situationally very very improbable.

 Range and performance is mutually incompatible. It's simple logic. If you want to fly for a long time, you take a heavy fuel load. The pros are the flight time, the cons are the weight. If you want the best performance, you take a light load. The pros is the performance edge, the cons is that your flight time is limited, so you must find a fight quickly, and a lot of climbouts is not optional.

 However, a configuration like 50% + DTs is an exploit of a real life "possible, but very improbable" situation which has quickly become the norm in the MA. Basically, it twists the basic logic - a plane can fly long and high, and despite that it can always instantly revert to a fully ideal, low-fuel condition at the touch of a button.

 A plane should not carry needless amount of fuel. If you don't want a heavy P-51, then you should up with 50% fuel in the first place, like everyone else. The flight time will be considerably shorter and your range is limited - but that's hardly surprising. Flying with half the normal fuel load is SUPPOSED to be like that. If you want to fly longer, like a true P-51, then up with 100% or 100%+DT fuel load and fly longer, but suffer the problems of weight - like everyone else. People are SUPPOSED to be heavy when they want to fly long distances.

 That's basically it.

 Making DTs availale only after 100% isn't taking away anything. It's just making the planes that loved such a config, like every other plane. Being able to fly a long distance is already an advantage by itself. Why should such gamey use of DTs give another tactical advantage to long-legged planes - the ability to fly a long distance and still be able to fight at light weight?

 It's not penalizing anything. If there's anyone being penalized, it's the short-legged plane users. Not only do they already have a disadvantage of having a shorter flight time, but they also have another disadvantage in that they can't choose to instantly dump fuel to make the plane 50%+ lighter than it initially was, on a whim.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2005, 06:05:46 PM by Kweassa »

Offline Karnak

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2005, 06:27:02 PM »
I agree that DTs should only be available after 100% internal fuel is selected and this is coming from somebody who does game the current system.  Why should I put myself at a disadvanatage right now?

If you want your P-51D to fight at low fuel levels just take off with 50% fuel.  Where is this crippling Amerincan (or Japanese) fighters?

It is easy to adjust to and just requires you to plan ahead for combat or loiter time rather than just getting it both ways because you are flying a P-51D or Ki-84.  The advantage the P-51D and Ki-84 should have is the choice of either short range combat or long range flight/loiter time whereas the Bf109s, La-7s, C.205s and Spits all are forced to just be short ranged combat aircraft.  The advantage should not be the ability to be both at once.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2005, 06:29:08 PM by Karnak »
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Offline DREDIOCK

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2005, 06:35:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TDeacon
So, Drediock, Straffo, etc.,

Since one can deliberately burn the fuselage tank first, then go to drop tanks, why not let them take off that way?  Same result in the end, except that it saves wasting player time flying in circles in the rear areas while the fuseage tank is used up.  

I see this as yet another effort to restrict the game play of others, in order to gain advantage for one's self.  Perhaps analogous to the current effort to perk yet another plane (the Spit XVI).  

BTW, these days, I do not usually use drop tanks or take off with partial fuel, and have not yet used the Spit XVI online, so I am relatively impartial.  :-)



why not let em take off that way? Im fine with it if thats the way they did it.
But if they didnt then they shouldnt be allowed to here either

Well he could always take off with 50% fuel as opposed to 25% and burn 25% en route to the fight

either way doesnt help or hurt my game play And I could care less about perking the dweeb16. I'd rather see the other ones perked as from my experiance going against them sofar the 16 isnt as good an all around fighter as the others.
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Offline TDeacon

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2005, 06:48:26 PM »
I guess there is some merit in the argument that the current situation might sometimes create atypical matchups (25% fuel US plane vs. 75% fuel Italian plane).  

I still tend to think that the cure (force full fuel with drop tanks) is worse than the disease.  Probably because there are so many other variables involved.  Once you have dropped the tanks, your options are limited by your fuel load.  How can you be sure that you will be in a situation where the slightly increased maneuverability counterbalances the shorter endurance?  If someone wants to take that gamble, I would say, let them.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2005, 06:57:38 PM by TDeacon »

Offline hubsonfire

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2005, 07:05:19 PM »
I disagree that the 109 and La7 are short range only. Using the cruise settings, their ranges can be greatly increased. True, you cannot fight constantly at WFOTH for 2 sectors, but you aren't absolutely crippled. In addition, to play the Devil's Advocate for a moment, plane choice is entirely up to the player. No one is forcing you to take a particular model, nor preventing you from taking a longer-legged plane on longer sorties.

For what it's worth, I regularly take 75% to 100% gas, or 100% +DT, but never a light internal load with a DT.  I suppose it's just preference, but I don't know that it really matters all that much for gameplay. I've been playing for years, and I couldn't tell you if the guy I'm fighting has full tanks, or is running on vapors. Moreover, I don't care. I think you're right, in that it would seem a bit silly from a "realistic" perspective, but I don't really think it has a considerable impact on gameplay.

Anyway, YMMV.
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Offline Widewing

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2005, 07:57:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
It's not penalizing anything. If there's anyone being penalized, it's the short-legged plane users. Not only do they already have a disadvantage of having a shorter flight time, but they also have another disadvantage in that they can't choose to instantly dump fuel to make the plane 50%+ lighter than it initially was, on a whim.


As I said before, restore the original 1.5 fuel burn and you will see less use of drop tanks.

And please, show me one airplane that carried 50% of its weight in external fuel. Even the ultra-long range P-47N would require 7,000 pounds of external fuel to meet your figure. However, the most it can carry externally is 2,250 pounds. Seriously, get a grip on reality. A P-47N pilot might take 50% and 75 gallons external, or 450 pounds. If he dropped the tank on takeoff while almost full, total reduction is 3% (based upon 15,000 lb takeoff weight with fuel, ammo and ordnance). So, where does your 50% fantasy come from?

My regards,

Widewing
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Offline bozon

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2005, 11:34:31 PM »
some planes have cannons and some planes only mg. Some planes have DT and some only internal tanks. Yes, DT option IS an advantage, but who said all planes are born equal? If the 205/La7 did not have a DT option, take it up with Macci/Lavochkin, what do you want from HTC?

This is more realistic? Find a pilot's book that say that the plane cannot be fitted with DT when the tanks are not full and I'm sure HT will fix that in the next patch.

I find the realism argument in this context extremely ridiculous. In a game where flaps auto-retract, shooting a friendly plane will knock your own bellybutton off, water injection "recharges", pilots swivel their head an owl's 180 degree, buildings get blown up by mg, 3 chess piece countries fight on a map that looks like a pizza with the Mercedes-Benz logo imbedded in it, and spit1 can fight a P47N you find loading 75%+DT, which was historically possible, unrealistic?!!! :D :D
:rolleyes:

You can argue on. This debate has already strated and ended in AHII beta and HT's decision is clear.

Bozon
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Offline Guppy35

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2005, 11:42:19 PM »
Sometimes we get really silly with these discussions don't we :)

So maybe it's time to get back to fundementals.

Do you have fun when you fly AH?

In the end that's all that matters.  No one really dies and planes are free. Relax and enjoy :)
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