Author Topic: Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem  (Read 2523 times)

Offline Kweassa

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #60 on: November 25, 2005, 09:09:53 PM »
Quote
You are saying the U.S. Airforce didnt have enough drop tanks to go around?


 No, he's saying the US Airforce didn't fly 25%+DTs.

Offline bj229r

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #61 on: November 25, 2005, 09:22:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
No, he's saying the US Airforce didn't fly 25%+DTs.


That WOULD be a valid arguement, had he SAID that, but that's quite obviously not what he said:confused:
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Offline straffo

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #62 on: November 26, 2005, 02:35:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by bj229r
You are saying the U.S. Airforce didnt have enough drop tanks to go around?

untill summer 44  yes.

Offline gatt

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Re: Re: Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #63 on: November 26, 2005, 04:16:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vortex
For scenarios, sure, one could make a case for that based on historical accuracy. I don't see it being a good thing for the MA though. Historical anything has nothing to do with the MA. Focus there should be on gameplay, and I don't see a change like this enhancing gameplay in the MA at all.


Vortex,
the fact that MA is not historical due to gamey features is not a reason to justify more gamey things. It is a problem.

Do diving level bombers justify 5K flying level bombers sinking CVs? Do CV's ack-ack hitting 400mph flying fighters at 20K+ and half a sector away justify fuel gaming? Do our "easy-mode" landing/takeoff flight model justify g-force immune bomber gunners? I guess the answer is a big *NO*.

Focus on gameplay? I think that the lack of a rollin plane set is more than enuff to focus on it.

The DT + 75% internal fuel limit would not enhance gameplay it would just avoid double standars and further unfair advantage for some a/c.
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline Widewing

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #64 on: November 26, 2005, 10:28:31 AM »
All of the arguments opposing the use of drop tanks and small loads of internal fuel would be valid IF we were flying long range combat missions as found in the ETO, SWPA and to some extent, the MTO.

However, the MA is far more representative of the Eastern Front than any other theater. Here most combat took place below 10,000 feet, over the battlefields and was fought by short-range fighters.

One glaring exception is that most American fighters, even the relatively short ranging models, were designed for greater range. Thus, they have significantly greater fuel capacity. This comes with a substantial weight penalty.

To insist that aircraft fly with at least 75% internal fuel before being able to load drop tanks is insisting that these aircraft be handicapped should they be bounced shortly after takeoff.

I rarely fly any aircraft with more than 75% fuel. A typical sortie for me would be an F6F with 75%, or just 50% depending upon the distance. Likewise, I'll fly a P-38G with 75%, or 50% with a single drop tank and one 1,000 lb bomb. My usual method is to use the drop tank for takeoff and climb out, pitching it when I reach cruise altitude (usually 10,000 feet). Now I have enough fuel to reach the target, fight for a while and still get back, if need be. Taking 75% would have the exact same result as it will burn off nearly 25% for takeoff and climbout. The difference is if I encounter enemy aircraft before I reach altitude, I can dump the bomb and tank and be at a weight that allows me to get good performance. Either way, when I reach my destination, my aircraft's weight is just about the same.

Most aircraft preclude taking bombs and drop tanks. You either take bombs or drop tanks, not both. Exceptions are the late model Jugs, the later F4Us and the P-38s. Most American planes allow for drop tanks and rockets, although rockets have very limited use, being suitable for soft targets only.

Regardless of arguments, the fact remains that the MA is not representative of history. If you want historical accuracy, then fly TOD when it comes online.

As it stands now, any load-out option available will be used. And why not? This is not an historical arena, HTC has reiterated that many times. In TOD your load-out will be determined by the mission and you will not be able to alter it.  

If someone insists on historical accuracy in the MA, you either implement it across the board, or don't even bother. That would mean no dive-bombing buffs. No CVs being sunk by strafing, limited 3 gun La-7s, etc and so on. You can't have it both ways, you sure as hell can't have it just because you prefer to fly one certain type of aircraft. If historical accuracy were a goal for the MA, why would we need TOD?

Each arena has its own purpose. The MA was never intended to be a historical arena, it was intended to be an air combat GAME utilizing WWII aircraft. For more immersive, historical play; we have scenarios, events and snapshots. However, the MA is a free-for-all, as it was intended, and it will remain that way. The MA is all about choices. You make your choices and you will live or die by them.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: November 26, 2005, 10:33:45 AM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline gatt

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #65 on: November 26, 2005, 12:08:33 PM »
Ok, I got it. Our Main is gameish. This justify many if not all the gameish things not fixed so far by HTC. So, dont ask for only *some* fix. Accept everything or wait for the TOD.

Thats great! :huh
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline Kweassa

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #66 on: November 26, 2005, 11:21:28 PM »
It's basically the typical "it ain't real" cop-out routine.

 When all else fails, one can always blow the entire discussion and go back to square one - "hey, this is all a game. The MA ain't like real WW2, so we can do whatever we want and we can use whatever gamey situations to our disposal, and so there."


 The MA, or AH itself for that matter, may not be a 1:1 scale representation of the real life conflict, but as game of the simulation genre its strength draws from what kind ethos it takes from the real life experience. Every inch it departs from reality unnecessarily, weakens its existence as a game of this kind.


 What's to stop people from wanting a "Sky-Captain" type of wonderweapons in the first place, when all realistic standards are declared null and void, just because "the MA ain't real"? Call me a fundamentalist, I don't care. But the attitudes shown by some people in these types of discussions are just classic hypocrisy at its best. The guys who would go to nut and bolt levels in discussing planes performance or other realism issues, would suddenly go blind on all else when it comes to the defense of their own favorite plane or plane groups.

 I mean, it's not even something like an "engine management" issue - an issue like that has reasons to be justified. This is a typical abusal issue - an abuse of an equipment in the wrong manner. It is plain wrong.

 Ofcourse, it is a "wrong" which many people are already used to, and take good advantage of - and none who would come to defend it would go as far as to admit like a man that the DTs available is an advantage they don't want to give up.

 Noooo - they resort to "it's realistic. Planes could do that.. if they really wanted to" argument, and now, it suddenly comes to "you can't expect realism in the MA" argument. How cheap is that?

Offline me62

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #67 on: November 26, 2005, 11:56:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bj229r
Crew chiefs were sergeants, pilots were officers--the plane is set up the way they want it


Where did you get the idea that the pilot or crew chief got to decide what
the loadout for the aircraft was going to be?  That was a decision made at
Squadron or Group Operations level.  Depending on what the mission for
that day was.

Mike

Offline me62

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #68 on: November 27, 2005, 12:08:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by bj229r
Crew chiefs were sergeants, pilots were officers--the plane is set up the way they want it


And the above statement might be true if you are only talking about the
USAAC (United States Army Air Corps) .  The Luftwaffe, Royal Air Force
and the Japanese Navy had Non-Commissioned Officers as pilots.

Mike

Offline bozon

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #69 on: November 27, 2005, 04:47:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Ofcourse, it is a "wrong" which many people are already used to, and take good advantage of - and none who would come to defend it would go as far as to admit like a man that the DTs available is an advantage they don't want to give up.

 Noooo - they resort to "it's realistic. Planes could do that.. if they really wanted to" argument, and now, it suddenly comes to "you can't expect realism in the MA" argument. How cheap is that?

I constantly claim that DT are an advantage (or to be exact - less of a fuel load disadvantage for some planes). Planes have advantages over one another in different areas, that is normal.

As to the realism argument, "realism" refers to the plane modeling - not how it is being used. The MA is a fictional scenario so different from WWII that the original use of a plane is almost irrelevant to what is does in the MA. This is most pronounced in american fighters since there is no stratigical war like the 8th AF was fighting. How often are P51s are used as high altitude, long range escort to buffs? Usually they are used as short range low altitude interceptors - much like the original use of russian fighters.

The most extreme example of non-historical usage are the buffs - they've been transfered from strategic command to tactical. They also carry a lot of air in their tanks since they hardly ever need more then 25% fuel. The mossie has no role since every other fighter can carry 2000 lbs of bombs, 30 miles away - they don't need to carry it from England to Germany like in real life (I still love it though). If this was WWII you'd wonder why they even bothered with it when P38/47/51/F4U/Typh would carry the same load or better, faster and also make a better fighter if attacked.

Bozon
« Last Edit: November 27, 2005, 04:51:10 AM by bozon »
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Offline bj229r

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #70 on: November 27, 2005, 07:52:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by me62
And the above statement might be true if you are only talking about the
USAAC (United States Army Air Corps) .  The Luftwaffe, Royal Air Force
and the Japanese Navy had Non-Commissioned Officers as pilots.

Mike


What he said!
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Offline J_A_B

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #71 on: November 27, 2005, 10:36:54 AM »
"So did they or didn't they ?
More clearly now :
Did the P51 pilot took off with 75% + DT or did they flew with 75% + DT ?"


The 87-gallon fuel tank behind the pilot's seat was ususally not filled all the way up; 60 gallons was about the norm.  This was further burned down somewhat prior to using the droptanks.  The actual amount that would be burned down depended on the mission profile.  Pilots wanted as little fuel as possible in that tank when fighting, but needed to keep enough fuel to get home with.  That is, however, a pecularity of the P-51 and not at all representative of other aircraft.  In truth, the most accurate way to model the P-51's internal fuel load would be to just treat ~60 gallons in the AUX tank as "full" and more than that as an "overload" condition.  

I agree completely with the subject of this threat in that it's a bit silly to permit people to routinely take 25% internal gas and droptanks.  Keep in mind that when I'm actively playing AH, I'm a P-51 guy, so I only stand to "lose" from such an implementation (can't accuse me of bias).

For that matter, I also think the MA should use a 1:1 fuel burn rate.  The 2.x rate used is downright irritating for many reasons beyond the scope of this thread.

J_A_B

Offline eilif

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #72 on: November 27, 2005, 10:49:13 AM »
The 2x fuel burn ratio matches the MA terrain style that is in place now, if they set fuel burn to 1.0 then the bases and such will have to be moved apart to at least have some sort of reference to real life.

I bet in TOD the bases will be in realistic   distances to each other and the warp points will take into account how much fuel you burned covering the distance traveled.

Fuel is a game play element whether your in a realistic style scenario or in an arcade environment. It keeps things moving.

Offline J_A_B

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #73 on: November 27, 2005, 11:12:35 AM »
"if they set fuel burn to 1.0 then the bases and such will have to be moved apart to at least have some sort of reference to real life. "

Incorrect--the fuel multiplier is an arena setting which is quite unrelated to the terrain.  If you LIKE the multiplier that's one thing, but don't falsely claim they'd have to change the terrain when in fact they wouldn't.  Heck, the last time I played AH the fields were already too far apart.  I don't view the multiplier as "keeping things moving"; I view it as an annoying nusiance.

I'm uninterested in TOD.  I have no desire to pretend to be Adolf Galland or Chuck Yeager or re-live any past wars.  In any event, it's highly improbable that TOD will use "realistic" distances as not many people want to fly 6 hour missions spending most of that looking at the scenery from 30K AGL.  Hopefully the people who like things such as fuel multipliers and distant airfields will all migrate to TOD.

J_A_B

Offline straffo

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Correct loadout: the drop tank and internal fuel problem
« Reply #74 on: November 27, 2005, 11:59:39 AM »
Thank for the informations J_A_B :)