Author Topic: Put up or Shutup  (Read 1701 times)

Offline JBA

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Put up or Shutup
« on: November 18, 2005, 03:13:08 PM »
GOP to Dems: Pull Troops Now? Okay, then let's vote...
Troop resolution Tonight; hitting the House floor between 5:45 and 7:45...
Ultimate showdown...

reports Drudge.
"They effect the march of freedom with their flash drives.....and I use mine for porn. Viva La Revolution!". .ZetaNine  03/06/08
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Offline JBA

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the line has been drawn
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2005, 04:19:40 PM »
that is the proverbial 'line in the sand'

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20051118/D8DV51A80.html
"They effect the march of freedom with their flash drives.....and I use mine for porn. Viva La Revolution!". .ZetaNine  03/06/08
"I'm just a victim of my own liberalhoodedness"  Midnight Target

Offline NUKE

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« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2005, 04:38:25 PM »
Heard this on the car radio just a little while ago. Sure is a balsy move and I can't wait to see what happens and what the dems will do/say.

Put up or shut up is right.

Offline JBA

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« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2005, 04:42:58 PM »
a litle history, why so many are so pissed off at the "bring them home crowed/anti war group"

How North Vietnam Won The War
Taken from The Wall Street Journal, Thursday August 3, 1995
What did the North Vietnamese leadership think of the American antiwar movement? What was the purpose of the Tet Offensive? How could the U.S. have been more successful in fighting the Vietnam War? Bui Tin, a former colonel in the North Vietnamese army, answers these questions in the following excerpts from an interview conducted by Stephen Young, a Minnesota attorney and human-rights activist. Bui Tin, who served on the general staff of North Vietnam's army, received the unconditional surrender of South Vietnam on April 30, 1975. He later became editor of the People's Daily, the official newspaper of Vietnam. He now lives in Paris, where he immigrated after becoming disillusioned with the fruits of Vietnamese communism.

Question: How did Hanoi intend to defeat the Americans?

Answer: By fighting a long war which would break their will to help South Vietnam. Ho Chi Minh said, "We don't need to win military victories, we only need to hit them until they give up and get out."

Q: Was the American antiwar movement important to Hanoi's victory?

A: It was essential to our strategy. Support of the war from our rear was completely secure while the American rear was vulnerable. Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9 a.m. to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement. Visits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda, and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war and that she would struggle along with us.

Q: Did the Politburo pay attention to these visits?

A: Keenly.

Q: Why?

A: Those people represented the conscience of America. The conscience of America was part of its war-making capability, and we were turning that power in our favor. America lost because of its democracy; through dissent and protest it lost the ability to mobilize a will to win.

Q: How could the Americans have won the war?

A: Cut the Ho Chi Minh trail inside Laos. If Johnson had granted [Gen. William] Westmoreland's requests to enter Laos and block the Ho Chi Minh trail, Hanoi could not have won the war.

Q: Anything else?

A: Train South Vietnam's generals. The junior South Vietnamese officers were good, competent and courageous, but the commanding general officers were inept.

Q: Did Hanoi expect that the National Liberation Front would win power in South Vietnam?

A: No. Gen. [Vo Nguyen] Giap [commander of the North Vietnamese army] believed that guerrilla warfare was important but not sufficient for victory. Regular military divisions with artillery and armor would be needed. The Chinese believed in fighting only with guerrillas, but we had a different approach. The Chinese were reluctant to help us. Soviet aid made the war possible. Le Duan [secretary general of the Vietnamese Communist Party] once told Mao Tse-tung that if you help us, we are sure to win; if you don't, we will still win, but we will have to sacrifice one or two million more soldiers to do so.

Q: Was the National Liberation Front an independent political movement of South Vietnamese?

A: No. It was set up by our Communist Party to implement a decision of the Third Party Congress of September 1960. We always said there was only one party, only one army in the war to liberate the South and unify the nation. At all times there was only one party commissar in command of the South.

Q: Why was the Ho Chi Minh trail so important?

A: It was the only way to bring sufficient military power to bear on the fighting in the South. Building and maintaining the trail was a huge effort, involving tens of thousands of soldiers, drivers, repair teams, medical stations, communication units.

Q: What of American bombing of the Ho Chi Minh trail?

A: Not very effective. Our operations were never compromised by attacks on the trail. At times, accurate B-52 strikes would cause real damage, but we put so much in at the top of the trail that enough men and weapons to prolong the war always came out the bottom. Bombing by smaller planes rarely hit significant targets.

Q: What of American bombing of North Vietnam?

A: If all the bombing had been concentrated at one time, it would have hurt our efforts. But the bombing was expanded in slow stages under Johnson and it didn't worry us. We had plenty of times to prepare alternative routes and facilities. We always had stockpiles of rice ready to feed the people for months if a harvest were damaged. The Soviets bought rice from Thailand for us.

Q: What was the purpose of the 1968 Tet Offensive?

A: To relieve the pressure Gen. Westmoreland was putting on us in late 1966 and 1967 and to weaken American resolve during a presidential election year.

Q: What about Gen. Westmoreland's strategy and tactics caused you concern?

A: Our senior commander in the South, Gen. Nguyen Chi Thanh, knew that we were losing base areas, control of the rural population and that his main forces were being pushed out to the borders of South Vietnam. He also worried that Westmoreland might receive permission to enter Laos and cut the Ho Chi Minh Trail. In January 1967, after discussions with Le Duan, Thanh proposed the Tet Offensive. Thanh was the senior member of the Politburo in South Vietnam. He supervised the entire war effort. Thanh's struggle philosophy was that "America is wealthy but not resolute," and "squeeze tight to the American chest and attack." He was invited up to Hanoi for further discussions. He went on commercial flights with a false passport from Cambodia to Hong Kong and then to Hanoi. Only in July was his plan adopted by the leadership. Then Johnson had rejected Westmoreland's request for 200,000 more troops. We realized that America had made its maximum military commitment to the war. Vietnam was not sufficiently important for the United States to call up its reserves. We had stretched American power to a breaking point. When more frustration set in, all the Americans could do would be to withdraw; they had no more troops to send over. Tet was designed to influence American public opinion. We would attack poorly defended parts of South Vietnam cities during a holiday and a truce when few South Vietnamese troops would be on duty. Before the main attack, we would entice American units to advance close to the borders, away from the cities. By attacking all South Vietnam's major cities, we would spread out our forces and neutralize the impact of American firepower. Attacking on a broad front, we would lose some battles but win others. We used local forces nearby each target to frustrate discovery of our plans. Small teams, like the one which attacked the U.S. Embassy in Saigon, would be sufficient. It was a guerrilla strategy of hit-and-run raids.

Q: What about the results?

A: Our losses were staggering and a complete surprise;. Giap later told me that Tet had been a military defeat, though we had gained the planned political advantages when Johnson agreed to negotiate and did not run for re-election. The second and third waves in May and September were, in retrospect, mistakes. Our forces in the South were nearly wiped out by all the fighting in 1968. It took us until 1971 to re-establish our presence, but we had to use North Vietnamese troops as local guerrillas. If the American forces had not begun to withdraw under Nixon in 1969, they could have punished us severely. We suffered badly in 1969 and 1970 as it was.

Q: What of Nixon?

A: Well, when Nixon stepped down because of Watergate we knew we would win. Pham Van Dong [prime minister of North Vietnam] said of Gerald Ford, the new president, "he's the weakest president in U.S. history; the people didn't elect him; even if you gave him candy, he doesn't dare to intervene in Vietnam again." We tested Ford's resolve by attacking Phuoc Long in January 1975. When Ford kept American B-52's in their hangers, our leadership decided on a big offensive against South Vietnam.

Q: What else?

A: We had the impression that American commanders had their hands tied by political factors. Your generals could never deploy a maximum force for greatest military effect.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2005, 04:50:05 PM by JBA »
"They effect the march of freedom with their flash drives.....and I use mine for porn. Viva La Revolution!". .ZetaNine  03/06/08
"I'm just a victim of my own liberalhoodedness"  Midnight Target

Offline Shifty

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« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2005, 04:57:33 PM »
This is way overdue. No more cheap shots from the cheap seats. Let em stand by their convictions, if they have any, or shut the hell up. Before we lose this war on TV. Instead of winning it in the Middle East.:furious

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Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2005, 05:02:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shifty
This is way overdue. No more cheap shots from the cheap seats. Let em stand by their convictions, if they have any, or shut the hell up. Before we lose this war on TV. Instead of winning it in the Middle East.:furious


Yep.

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2005, 05:33:59 PM »
http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2005/11/gop_to_call_mur_1.html

Quote
GOP Tries To Call Murtha's "Bluff"
We can now confirm that there will be a "Murtha Vote" later this p.m. Speaker Dennis Hastert's spokesperson Ron Bonjean tells The Hotline that it's a "vote to send a message to our American troops that we believe in their mission of fighting terrorists and we must not retreat and defeat."

Angered by what he saw as House Dems "applauding but then backing off" Murtha's statement on 11/17, Rep. J.D. Hayworth (R-AZ) rose this a.m. at the House GOP Conference and suggested that they call for a vote to force Dems to show "where they stand to the American people," according to his spokesperson Larry VanHoose. Hayworth's call was met with what VanHoose described as "enthusiastic applause" from the rank-and-file GOP.

Pushing aside votes on extending the tax cuts, reauthorizing the Patriot Act and a long-awaited measure on federal flood insurance, the GOP leadership has turned Hayworth's idea into a resolution and will bring it to floor of the House for a vote by 7 pm, according to senior GOP leadership sources.

The question now is what Leader Pelosi and her caucus will do. After keeping her Dems in line on both major fiscal votes on 11/17, does she stick them all in cabs and push them off to DCA, IAD and BWI? Or will some Dems from conservative or military-heavy districts insist on staying and casting their "nays?"

CNN is reporting that Dems are planning on having just Murtha debate the resolution, but it remains to be seen how and if the rest of the caucus votes.

Here's a draft of the resolution:

Draft text of the expected resolution is attached and below.

H.Res. __

Expressing the sense of the House of Representatives that the deployment of United States forces in Iraq be terminated immediately.

Resolved, That it is the sense of the House of Representatives that the deployment of United States forces in Iraq be terminated immediately. [JONATHAN MARTIN AND MARC AMBINDER


Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2005, 06:18:01 PM »
Quote
The fiery, emotional debate climaxed when Rep. Jean Schmidt, R-Ohio, the most junior member of the House, told of a phone call she received from a Marine colonel.

"He asked me to send Congress a message - stay the course. He also asked me to send Congressman Murtha a message - that cowards cut and run, Marines never do," Schmidt said.



Ouch.

No holds barred Rochambeau.
Punishr - N.D.M. Back in the air.
8.) Lasersailor 73 "Will lead the impending revolution from his keyboard"

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2005, 06:20:49 PM »
How brave of those brave republicans. To bravely call for this vote for bravery.

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2005, 06:23:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
How brave of those brave republicans. To bravely call for this vote for bravery.
Thats the best rebuttal you have for your party? Hehe!

Brilliant move by Congress.

Offline AWMac

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« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2005, 06:31:48 PM »
Stay the Course!!!  

If we Cut and Run we loose all that we have hoped to achieve.  It will take strong men, of strong will to harnish the root of Terror. Think back through all the history books in America... The Minute Men, The Green Mountain Boys, Rodgers Rangers...if they lived today what would they say?  "Men pull yer arses up by the bootstraps, we have a job to do!"

The DemoCraps are doing anything possible to fail the mission... for what?  To let Hillaery in? Ohhh PhaaaaLeeez!!!

If we cut and run then the battle will be again on OUR soil.

Mac

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2005, 06:38:37 PM »
Cut and Run is what we did in Somolia while trying to provide a safe passage for humanitarian aid in the thick of Al Queda operations inside Somolia. This was the catylist that set forth more daring terrorist operations for the future, when we showed them fear....

Offline AWMac

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« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2005, 06:51:15 PM »
Deleted.

7- Members should remember this board is aimed at a general audience. Posting pornographic or generally offensive text, images, links, etc. will not be tolerated. This includes attempts to bypass the profanity filter.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2005, 11:16:35 AM by MP8 »

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2005, 07:00:25 PM »
Wonder if it bothers any of the dried up old hippy protestors that they were commy pawns?

Prolly not.

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2005, 07:01:42 PM »
I've been watching Cspan.  It's funny seeing the dems froth at the mouth and the repubs are basically put up or shut up, record your vote!