Put up or Shutup

[Furious]

Kurt Vonnegut
Thanks to TV and for the convenience of TV, you can only be one of two kinds of human beings, either a liberal or a conservative.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by midnight Target
Naw, I think I'll just stay out of your little circle ****.

Just like every other liberal.  It's ok, most of you don't think a cut and run from Iraq is the best thing to do even if talking about it hurts the president.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by JBA
a litle history, why so many are so pissed off at the "bring them home crowed/anti war group"

How North Vietnam Won The War
 

Ok who was it being interviewed?
and by whom?

[lasersailor184]

Wall Street Journal was the interviewer.  They were interviewing Bui Tin.

[NUKE]

Murtha is speaking now.

He's seems likeable, reasonable and is making his point without being an hysterical lunatic, like your average liberal democrat.

He's making good points and seems intelligent. I can honestly say that I respect him and his approach, but that I dissagree with his ideas on Iraq.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by NUKE
Murtha is speaking now.

He's seems likeable, reasonable and is making his point without being an hysterical lunatic, like your average liberal democrat.

He's making good points and seems intelligent. I can honestly say that I respect him and his approach, but that I dissagree with his ideas on Iraq.

I think that's the majority opinion against him Nuke.  No one that I know called him a traitor or dishonest but that they respect the man but not his Ideas.  

This is a good play by play of some of the debate tonite.  I'm actually proud of my congress tonite for actually debating this for once:

9:13 PM Eastern: Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) says that her part of California treats veterans with respect, but that Murtha is not being treated with respect (apparently because his proposal wasn’t immediately accepted as gospel). She uses many of the night’s buzz-words, calling this resolution “a political stunt” and repeatedly calling these proceedings a “deception.” She also claims that Murtha’s integrity has been attacked. She is receiving extended rounds of applause after many of her statements from the Democrat caucus. She says Murtha was called a “coward” and accused of “cooperating with the enemy” by Republicans in the House, though of course this comes without explanation or evidence. She says Murtha has “dealt the mighty blow of truth to the President’s failed Iraq policy,” and that the American people have rallied to Jack Murtha’s position. Pelosi also says that Murtha has spoken “truth to power,” which she says is a very high act of patriotism.

9:12 PM Eastern: Jeff Fortenberry (R-Neb.) reads off some touching stories of constituents who have recently given their lives for their country over in Iraq, as well as the thoughts and feelings of family members. He says that his constituents who gave their lives knew that they were fighting for something greater than themselves.

9:10 PM Eastern: Kingston says he agrees that this is not the Murtha resolution, but that it is Murtha’s headline. He says that Murtha and immediate withdrawal are what al-Jazeera is reporting to the people over in Iraq. He also quotes Gen. William Webster, previously referenced, who said that, if the U.S. withdraws troops now, the soldiers he has lost will have been for naught.

9:09 PM Eastern: Tom Osborne (R-Neb.) says that he’s concerned about the “acrimony” and the “general tenor” of the discussion, though he refuses to blame anyone in particular. He says he’s worried about what the public and the troops will think about the discussion taking place tonight. He says “we’re better than this.”

9:07 PM Eastern: Louie Gohmert (R-Tex.) recalls a letter from John Adams in 1776 that said the early American revolutionaries were on the cusp of self-government. Iraq is in the same position today, according to Gohmert.

9:03 PM Eastern: Steny Hoyer (D-Md.) says that recent developments have made clear the need for an honest analysis of alternative proposals. He says he doesn’t support the Hunter resolution for immediate withdrawal in Iraq. Hoyer says that Hunter proposed this resolution in order to avoid a legitimate discussion of withdrawal or timetables for withdrawal in Iraq. He also says that this is an attempt by the administration and the GOP to trivialize the issue. Hoyer also says this resolution is beneath the dignity of the institution and the members of the House. He calls this a “shabby, petty political maneuver,” and he thinks this resolution reflects a lack of respect for the House and American democracy as a whole.

9:00 PM Eastern: Dana Rohrabacher (R-Calif.) brings up the criticism levied by these Democrats calling the President a liar, even going so far back as to when they slandered President Reagan for his attempts to fight communism in Latin America. This is a particular point that, at least in terms of Reagan, hasn’t been brought up yet. Gingrey brought up the fact that the President has been called a liar or darn near it by the same people complaining of unfair treatment to Murtha.

8:57 PM Eastern: George Miller (D-Calif.) is heading into Murtha territory again. He says that Murtha has been characterized unfairly and criticized relentlessly by the President, the Vice President, the Speaker of the House, and his own colleages who “challenged his patriotism, challenged his character, challenged his integrity.” There appears to be no example of this having actually taken place. Miller says that all Murtha wanted was a debate. Miller also longs for the olden days when he opposed American foreign policy in Southeast Asia and Latin America, when Murtha was on the other side, but he says that people didn’t trash each other to the same degree as he claims they have done now. Miller is going far over his time and causing another ruckus. He gets a round of applause from the Democrat caucus for violating decorum.

8:55 PM Eastern: Wayne Gilchrist (R-Md.) reads off the names of constituents who gave their lives in Iraq for the mission. He says that our troops are successful because they bond together through integrity and trust. He desires an analysis of how to finish the war as opposed to how to fight the war.

8:54 PM Eastern: Ron Lewis (R-Ky.) asks how you can withdraw from the war on terror, making reference to several terrorist attacks taking place against U.S. interests during the 1990s and through the present. He links the desire of the Clinton administration not to fight terrorism in a hands-on way with the fact that the U.S. was attacked on September 11, 2001.

[Gunslinger]

contd.

8:52 PM Eastern: Jim Gibbons (R-Nev.) mentions that he’s a veteran of two wars, and that our soldiers overseas pay a lot of attention to what their leaders are doing back at home. He says that our troops in Iraq are looking to see whether or not the leaders here have the stomach for the war effort and to keep supporting their mission. He asks what message Congress wants to send to the soldiers overseas.

8:51 PM Eastern: Gene Green (D-Tex.) says that this resolution isn’t about the Iraq war, but rather silencing Jack Murtha. Where he’s getting this from remains to be seen.

8:50 PM Eastern: Rodney Frelinghuysen (R-N.J.) says he thinks that withdrawal would be an absolute disaster. He says that the exit strategy in Iraq must be victory.

8:46 PM Eastern: Slaughter yields time to Walter Jones (R-N.C.), who says that Murtha has been attacked unfairly. Jones says that he wants to know what the strategy is in Iraq, and brings up a quote from then-Governor Bush criticizing then-President Clinton about not having an exit strategy or timetable in his own war effort. Jones gets a strong round of applause from the Democrats after his speech. The hooting and hollering, not to mention the crosstalk, has begun again.

8:43 PM Eastern: Tom Tancredo (R-Colo.) encourages his colleagues to think of what the U.S. has accomplished since the mission began in Iraq. He talks about opening embassies, building new schools, opening colleges and research centers, among other things. Basically, everything Tancredo is listing off is an example of social capital or a mark of an improving democratic nation-state. He also says he wants the soldiers home as soon as possible. He says that, even though he doesn’t see eye to eye with the President, he asks the Democrats not to allow their hatred of the President as a person to get in the way of doing what’s right for the country and its troops.

8:41 PM Eastern: Judy Biggert (R-Ill.) clarifies, again, that this resolution is not about Jack Murtha but rather about where elected representatives stand on an immediate withdrawal of U.S. soldiers from Iraq.

8:38 PM Eastern: Steve King (R-Iowa) wonders why there haven’t been any objections to the mission in Afghanistan even though it also cost American lives. He wonders why it is that no one has ever set a limit on the amount of sacrifice that the U.S. can make in Afghanistan, when so many people are concerned with how much is too much vis-a-vis Iraq. He also says that the U.S. hasn’t been attacked since 9/11, and that you can’t separate the troops from the mission. He says that, if the defeatists get their way, the soldiers returning home from Iraq will be received the same way the soldiers were received when they came home from Somalia, Lebanon, and Vietnam.

8:37 PM Eastern: Joe Wilson (R-S.C) (not that Joe Wilson, of course) talks about his children serving in the U.S. military. He says that 9/11 was the beginning of a global war against terrorism, and that we have to face our enemy overseas or else we will be facing them here at home.

8:34 PM Eastern: Rahm Emanuel (D-Ill.) brings up U.S. Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Neb.) and his position on the current state of the war in Iraq. He also talks about the other individuals in Congress who have made recommendations about how to proceed from here. Emanuel says that the House deserves criticism for not asking the necessary questions about the war in Iraq. He says that our soldiers deserve a policy of success, victory, and exit.

8:31 PM Eastern: Rick Renzi (R-Ariz.) says that his father served in the armed forces and is a great friend of Jack Murtha. He makes the differentiation between the Hunter resolution and the Murtha proposal, finally. He encourages honesty in this process. Renzi makes reference to the factual evidence that shows there was no misrepresentation by the Bush administration taking place in the lead up to the war.

8:29 PM Eastern: Chet Edwards (D-Tex.) talks about the Iraq veterans that he represents in his district. He believes that votes on war are the most important that a congressman makes, and points out that the average congressman has 7.8 seconds to speak on the issue tonight without any hearings or witnesses. He believes that the proceedings tonight are challenging the integrity of the House.

8:27 PM Eastern: Candice Miller (R-Mich.) lists the potential results of withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq prematurely. She also believes that the U.S. has to maintain troops in Iraq until a peace is secured, otherwise the U.S. will be fighting the terrorists here at home as opposed to overseas.

8:25 PM Eastern: Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) talks about his history in organizing against the war, but says he’s going to vote against this withdrawal because he believes it’s a fraud for a resolution’s proponent to encourage voting against of it. He’s getting pretty fired up.

8:24 PM Eastern: Ginny Brown-Waite (R-Fl.) recalls a touching story where an Iraqi woman asked her to make sure that American troops don’t leave until Iraq is secure. She says that we do have an exit strategy: when the Iraqi people stand up, we will stand down.

8:22 PM Eastern: Joseph Crowley (D-N.Y.) says that the Bush administration misled the country into war, and that the Republicans are playing politics with the war. Crowley also asserts that the Republicans are questioning the patriotism of Murtha. As of the time of writing, no elected Republican has challenged Murtha’s patriotism.

8:21 PM Eastern: Lincoln Diaz-Balart (R-Fl.) says that there is an appearance that there is a weakening of support for the mission in Iraq and the troops fighting over there. He hopes that the vote on this resolution will help clear up the issue, because it seems rather obvious that this resolution will be voted down by a very wide margin.

8:17 PM Eastern: Mel Watt (D-N.C.) speaks on behalf of the Congressional Black Caucus. Watt says that he reaffirms the CBC’s principles regarding the war in Iraq, originally declared in October 2002. Watt asks the President to submit a detailed plan to withdraw U.S. forces from Iraq and to train Iraqi soldiers to maintain internal security. In other words, Watt is endorsing a slightly more detailed version of the Murtha proposal. He makes it very clear that the CBC’s 42 votes will not be misinterpreted, which makes me think, as an editorial note, they will probably vote for the resolution.

8:14 PM Eastern: Gresham Barrett (R-S.C.) says not to believe the things on television and in the news. He says he’s been to Iraq and spoken to the soldiers and leaders, and that the people he sees over there are young heroes, not like the old folks in Congress. Barrett says that, as long as he is a U.S. Congressman, he will not cut and run on the people of Iraq, the soldiers on the ground, or on the United States. He says that we shouldn’t be talking about an exit strategy, but about freedom, democracy, and victory.

8:10 PM Eastern: Ike Skelton (D-Mo.) says that the resolution makes no mention of redeployment. He continues the laudatory remarks about Murtha, claiming that Murtha is being attacked by this resolution and this debate. This appears to be the consistent Democrat line so far, though it could degenerate into a shouting match as it did previously. Skelton encourages hearings in the Armed Services Committee on these issues.

8:08 PM Eastern: Joseph Pitts (R-Pa.) rises in opposition to the resolution. Pitts makes reference to his own experience as a Vietnam veteran, where he would “hear the politicians in Washington undermining the war effort for political purposes.” He says that the political rhetoric from pro-withdrawal Democrats “comes at the expense of our troops in the field,” and Pitts says it’s “demoralizing and insulting” to the soldiers, and it emboldens the terrorists.

8:06 PM Eastern: Slaughter links the Bush administration to torture in Iraq, and claims that “mismanagement and corruption” within the administration are responsible for failure in Iraq. She says that the reaction of the Republicans proves how right and important Murtha really is. She says the Hunter resolution is “nothing like” Murtha’s proposal, which is not factually correct. They are not the same, but they are similar.

8:02 PM Eastern: Slaughter re-connects the Hunter resolution to Murtha. Argues that Murtha’s reputation on national security and defense issues gives his words weight, and this resolution tonight is a panic response. Slaughter compares Murtha’s service history to the President’s, Vice President’s, and Secretary of Defense’s. She also says that the Republicans are attempting to Swift Boat Murtha.

7:59 PM Eastern: Chet Edwards (D-Tex.) makes a request that all members of the House be allotted 5 minutes each to speak on this issue. Gingrey does not yield time to Edwards to make the unanimous consent request. Louise Slaughter (D-N.Y.) will control the time for the Democrat side.

I can only assume that all times are EST

[JBA]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Ok who was it being interviewed?
and by whom?

 1st paragraph

Taken from The Wall Street Journal, Thursday August 3, 1995......
....following excerpts from an interview conducted by Stephen Young, a Minnesota attorney and human-rights activist. Bui Tin, who served on the general staff of North Vietnam's army....

try google it works pretty well.

BUI TIN,

I have watched a Doc, on the hanoi hilton, the one with interviews with McCain and his fellow prisoners, They mentions this specifical about the NV useing the Anti war movement here in the US to try to brke them.

[Silat]

All well and good but the Dems arent asking for a complete pullout. One man said his opinion.
But it is the rep way to paint with broadstrokes...............

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by JBA
1st paragraph

Taken from The Wall Street Journal, Thursday August 3, 1995......
....following excerpts from an interview conducted by Stephen Young, a Minnesota attorney and human-rights activist. Bui Tin, who served on the general staff of North Vietnam's army....

try google it works pretty well.

BUI TIN,

I have watched a Doc, on the hanoi hilton, the one with interviews with McCain and his fellow prisoners, They mentions this specifical about the NV useing the Anti war movement here in the US to try to brke them.

Who do you think organized (this isn't really AT you JBA but more or less a general question) a majority of the "peace" ralleys and "peace" movements.

wait for it....


Communists, and I'm not saying bad Americans, I'm saying certified communisists.  Even today if you go to the ralleys you will see a boat load of commie and marxist literature.  The best way to defeat America is from within and with dissent.  I'm not saying that dissent is a bad thing, but it makes sense that 1+1=2.

[Nash]

As has been said, this wasn't Murtha's proposal that they were voting on. It was a hastilly written and mangled version of it introduced today by the Republicans in reaction to Murtha's actual bill. A stunt.

A stunt that just blew up in their faces tonight.

LMAO.

The Dems oughta now craft up a peachy new bill tomorrow.

Entitled: "Bushy, You're Doing a Heck of a Job."

It would be the Senate's ringing endorsement of Bush's great handling of the war.

Lets get everyone on the record on that.

Of course, the Republican majority would never let something like that see the light of day.

Oh well.... But what a night.

[JBA]

I agree Guns, that’s the problem with the buttnutts and their "no war for oil" crap and everything else we've been subjected to for the past 2-3 years. they have no prospective of the damage they are doing,

And yes, I'll say it out loud,



they are traitors for doing it. Aiding and giving comfort to the enemy...

[Nash]

^

Lol.

Ya can't help but laugh.

"Traitors!" "Adding and giving comfort to the enemy!"

Jesious....

(though the "adding" enemy part I can agree with)

[joowenn]

I say we stay, shouldnt we?

[Gunslinger]

yup what Nash wont realize is the fact that every time one of these democrats goes to the nearest microphone/camera and says "bring our boys home" it gives strength to the insurgancy.  Asking for a timeline for troop withdrawl gives strength to the insurgancy.  Why not ask for a timeline for a victory in Iraq......that's something I can get behind.