went shooting with..

[lazs2]

seagoon and eden... I don't want to see our police heavily armed with weapons the general public can't have... if it costs a few cops lives so be it.  seagoon hit it.. it is more than the perception tho..  Heavily armed police with machine guns and grenades are soldiers of a police state.

I do not agree that the mp5 is as accurate as a hundgun.. the potential for killing indescrimintely is enormous..  I have fired them and all my handguns are more accurate than a full auto mp5.  I watch swat train with the gun all the time and they are all over the place even at 10 yards... I don't want police to open up in crowds with an mp5 or their surplus M16's.   Not in cities anyway.

cops have their handguns and shotguns openly displayed in the U.S. and... to top it off they wear black ninja quasi military outfits... If they were worried about public perception they might tone down the uniform a bit eh?

The sidearms they wear are openly carried but somewhat difficult to draw not because of concealment issues but because of retention issues... the new mantra is to keep the bad guy from getting your gun... I am sure cops on here could verify that.

even cops won't benifiet much from drawing in a split second tho... the threat assesment is far more important...  there is allways time to act or... no time at all (bad guy allready has gun in hand)  you can't draw faster than a guy holding a gun with the will to kill can shoot for instance.  

 you can allways be more accurate tho... you can allways think faster (asses faster)  and you can allways be the one with more will to win.

lazs

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by deSelys
Bravo Gman.

This why I don't like DA/SA pistols (exception being the CZ 75 as it can be carried chambered, cocked and locked), it requires a lot of extra training to break in the pull force difference between 1st and 2nd shot.
I don't like DAO neither at it trades off a lot of accuracy.

I think that, for police forces, systems like the Glock are the best as they reduce the amount of necessary training for a safe gun handling. Even if some guns are cheaper/more durable, the costs of extra training could easily be higher and can't be overlooked.

About the 1911, isn't it dangerous to carry it chambered with hammer down? Is the link between hammer and firing pin interrupted or can a blow on the hammer cause an accidental dsicharge?

How come Glock's cause more feet being shot while holstering than other guns in the past?   It's up to the individual to keep his finger off of the trigger until the "said gun" is holstered, or unholstered.  

So a Glock is "safer" than my USP 45 with the "true safety" set to safe?   Please, spare me the "great Glock" lecture.  I enjoy firing them, but they are the LAST thing that should be mentioned in gun safety.   ANY Weapon should not encourage LESS training, but MORE TRAINING.  As soon as you start "skimping" gun safety and training, you are opening yourself for accidents.  

Anyone still have the DEA footage of the idiot, shooting his foot in class with a Glock 19?  Funnier yet, it wasn't even holstered, and he wasn't trained enough to distinguish the sound of a round being chambered.  On top of the fact, that the other idiot that handed him the gun, couldn't tell the difference didn't notice the full mag.  Speaking of full mags, neither one realized the weight difference between an empty or full pistol.  

BTW, the 1911 and USP can be safely carried C'd n L'd.   The USP uses a modified Browning action.  I just keep my finger off of the trigger until I'm ready to shoot, no matter the weapon.  

Karaya

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Eden
I agree... bottom line is don't use a handgun to fight a war.  A handgun is what you use to fight your way to a rife.  Home defense is another issue all together.  The M-9 Beretta de-***** the hammer (And rotates the firing pin) when the safety is applied so the hammer would be forward and the safety on when stored at home.  The trigger pull on the M-9 is heavy in DA and don't forget range shooting (for the military) is mostly about the score.  There are more realistic reaction courses and gunfighting schools then that (the Army has some great ones) and those are the ones that really pay off.  Bottom line is in a Battle...have a rifle esppecially when all you have is 9mm Ball ammo.  There are some who argue the perks of Handguns but in a war I'll disagree (now at home I have the 44magnum for defense...diferent scenario).

The Beretta and 9mm are both pieces of ****.   I carried the POS Beretta .40 Cougar, and then a 96.  Both stovepiped, and I reverted back to the .38 Special J-Frame S&W.  I'll take reliabilty anyday.   IMO, with Beretta's, you're better off throwing them at your enemy.  

Karaya

[deSelys]

MB I don't disagree with you but I can't see a flaw in the glock concept in anything you've said:
- the mantra "finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot" applies to EVERY gun
- not a single gun is idiot proof. Not my fault if your DEA instructors are morons.

That being said, a glock chambered (and hence half-cocked) is safer than any 1911 chambered but with safety off. When a glock armed cop is shot at, there is NO risk that he'll forget to flip the safety off before shooting or that he'll forget to flip it back on before holstering

I also agree that training is adamant, but in the real world you should know that when costs have to be reduced, training is a prime target. It shouldn't be, it's sad, you and I are fully against it, but we have to live with it. It's probably wiser to pick up a firearm requiring less training to operate safely than something maybe a bit better but more error prone.


Glocks aren't perfect but they have some very interesting characteristics for law enforcement.

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by deSelys
MB I don't disagree with you but I can't see a flaw in the glock concept in anything you've said:
- the mantra "finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot" applies to EVERY gun
- not a single gun is idiot proof. Not my fault if your DEA instructors are morons.

That being said, a glock chambered (and hence half-cocked) is safer than any 1911 chambered but with safety off. When a glock armed cop is shot at, there is NO risk that he'll forget to flip the safety off before shooting or that he'll forget to flip it back on before holstering

I also agree that training is adamant, but in the real world you should know that when costs have to be reduced, training is a prime target. It shouldn't be, it's sad, you and I are fully against it, but we have to live with it. It's probably wiser to pick up a firearm requiring less training to operate safely than something maybe a bit better but more error prone.


Glocks aren't perfect but they have some very interesting characteristics for law enforcement.

I ain't coming down on you, don't take it that way.  I understand the "finger off the trigger" applies to every gun.  Problem is, Glocks cause this problem more than any others.  Especially, quick draws, etc.  

HK's safety is unlike the Sig or Beretta's, btw.  You don't have to break your grip to reach it, you flick it up to engage the safety, or flick down to fire.

Karaya