Bf109E-4 (trop) I/JG27

[Krusty]

I've forgotten, is it roman numerals (I, II, III) for general gruppes, and normal numbers (1, 2, 3,) for stab?

Well this is I/JG27's oddly colored bird. I used some scale model references, but I have one real war-time photo of the bird, so I was able to pick from it quite a bit of detail. Decals/Model sources helped fill in the blanks that I didn't know.



This isn't 100% done but it's 99% done. I'm going to "burn" the lighter paint a bit, as if its been scorched by the sun a bit.

[Panzzer]

There were usually three Gruppen in a Geschwader, designated with Roman numerals. Each Gruppe was divided into several Staffeln (again, usually three). The Staffel would be designated with a arabic number. So Gruppe I would consist of Staffeln 1, 2 and 3, while Gruppe 2 would be Staffeln 4, 5 and 6 with the third group of Staffeln 7, 8 and 9. The Stab (Geschwader Kommodore and several others, maybe 6-8 pilots - the HQ Flight) was usually attached to a Gruppe of the Geschwader. But it was possible to have I. Gruppe Stab, II. Gruppe Stab etc... But Stab is usually marked as Stab/JG**.

That is an oddly colored bird, nice choice.

[Krusty]

So then a squad commander would be listed in the object file simply as "Stab/JG26" whereas this one would be listed "1/JG27" right?

And if it's part of the staffel, then you put a period "." in, right? Like "9./JG54"?

[Panzzer]

Yes, that would be 9./JG54 (which would make that a part of III/JG54).

[JAWS2003]

Kewl.

[Bruno]

I don't know what profile you chose for that skin but its incorrect. There are actual pictures of Red 3 in several books.  Rot 3 (Red 3) of 2./JG27 was an 109E-7/Trop (just means tropical filter). Here's one the most accurate profiles I have seen of it:



However, there's no E-7 in AH2...

[JAWS2003]

I think he got the right colors:

[Krusty]

Yes, I've never seen any sources until yours that it had yellow nose and rudder. I have a black and white photo of the one Jaws posted (all I could find) but it clearly has a green nose in the photo, and in the 2-3 different decal sheets covering the plane.

EDIT: And it's an E-4. Every other source out there lists it as such.

I think your profile template is highly suspect, Bruno, you can't always trust 'em. This one seems to be inaccurate.

EDIT2: Just more info, the plane I've done is a 109E-4 from 1941 stationed in Lybia, of 1/JG27. All the sources I saw that had 1/JG27 and 109E4 and 1941 Lybia didn't mention 2/JG27 or being a 109E7. Black outlined with red is a 1 Gruppe color, I believe. Also there is no Gruppe marking aft of the balkenkreuz, which is only allowed for aircraft in 1 Gruppe. So I'm of the mind that this plane was 1 Gruppe.

EDIT3: Well found out traditional Gruppe 1 markings were white, and Gruppe 2 sometimes black sometimes red, but the webpage that told me this said that often times these colors were not adhered to. So then it falls back to the absence of gruppe markings on the tail, which means gruppe 1.

[Bruno]

First in 1940 a Red numeral (sometimes black) and with no Gruppen marking = 2nd Staffel.

 2nd Staffel is designated as 2./ in this case the 2nd Staffel of JG 27 or correctly written = 2./JG 27

2./JG 27 = 1st Gruppe.

 Staffeln 1-3 (later 4) were in 1st Gruppe.

1./JG 27 would have white numerals

2./JG 27 would have red or black

3./JG 27 would have yellow numerals.

Whatever profile you chose is incorrect. Pictures of Red 3 can be found in many books. Red 3 is a 2./JG 27 aircraft, it's an E-7 and the paint scheme in the profile I provided is as accurate as can be.

Well found out traditional Gruppe 1 markings were white, and Gruppe 2 sometimes black sometimes red, but the web page that told me this said that often times these colors were not adhered to. So then it falls back to the absence of Gruppe markings on the tail, which means Gruppe 1.

Whatever website told you that never visit it again:

Jagdwaffe Structure

Tactical Markings

A Gruppe is not a Staffel

12- 16 planes make up a Staffel

Staffeln are designated by the color of the numerals

3 to 4 Staffel make up a Gruppe

Each Gruppe has a Stab

Gruppen are designated by a mark behind the Balkankreuz on the fuselage.

3 to 4 Gruppen make up a Geschwader

Each Geschwader has a stab

If you are referring to the rumpfband being white that has nothing to do with anything.

[Bruno]

Just post your source photo / profile and will look through my books.

[Bruno]

Scanned with caption...

Also, I scanned some other images of 2./JG 27 aircraft, all of them have a yellow nose and tail. In fact one image is captioned 'note the yellow nose'. I will post them tomorrow.

There's another picture of Black 3 but you can't see the nose or tail. Even in the image posted by Jaws and myself you can't see if the cowl is yellow with over spray or a solid color. I have to look through some more books but I am almost sure I have a clearer photo that is close to matching the profile above.

All source I have list Red/Black 3 as an E-7.

[Krusty]

Uh.. yes.. in the photo you just posted and the one Jaws posted, you can tell the nose is not yellow. There are photos of other yellow noses that were sprayed over. It's very obvious as it shows through.

There are decal sheets that show the skin as I made it and list it as an E-4 trop, and there is even box art for one model (not a stand-alone decal manufacturer) that also shows an E4 with green nose.

Yes I know you're going to say decals are not correct, but looking at the photo they seem to be more correct than a yellow nosed version.

Staffel are gruppe leaders. Stab/JG 27 would be the Sqn commande, leading gruppe 1. 2./JG27 would be gruppe 2.

I have been to the links you posted, before. However I couldn't find them in a quick google search when I was looking in my previous post.

In the tactical one it says "The individual Gruppen were also identified by a symbol which was positioned directly aft of the fuselage cross, except for the I. Gruppe which did not have a symbol. These Gruppen symbols were painted on both Stab aircraft and the individual Staffel machines."

So that means this profile comes form 1 gruppe. Were it 2./JG27 it would have a dash.

[Bruno]

in the photo you just posted and the one Jaws posted, you can tell the nose is not yellow.

Not necessarily. You just can't tell by that photo due to the shadow and poor quality.

Staffel are gruppe leaders. Stab/JG 27 would be the Sqn commande, leading gruppe 1. 2./JG27 would be gruppe 2.

what?

Staffel = Squadron = 12 to 16 planes...

A Staffel is further broken down into 3 or 4 'Schwärme' led by the Schwärmführer; which in turn can be broken down into 2 plane elements known as 'Rotte' led by the Rottenführer

A Staffel is lead by the Staffelkapitän

Gruppe = 3 to 4 Staffel + 4 plane Stab

Gruppen are led by the Kommandeure

Geschwader = 3 to 4 Gruppen + 4 plane Stab

The Geschwader is led by the Kommodore

The individual Gruppen were also identified by a symbol which was positioned directly aft of the fuselage cross, except for the I. Gruppe which did not have a symbol. These Gruppen symbols were painted on both Stab aircraft and the individual Staffel machines."

So that means this profile comes form 1 gruppe. Were it 2./JG27 it would have a dash.

No that's not what it means.

I./JG 27 in '41 consisted of 3 Staffeln.

1st Staffel - written as 1./JG 27 - White Numerals

2nd Staffel - written as 2./JG 27 - Red/Black Numerals

3rd Staffel - written as 3./JG 27 - Yellow Numerals

The Gruppen symbols are aft of the Balkankreuz on the fuselage.

On 'Black 3' there is no Gruppe symbol so we know it's I./Gruppe (written I./JG 27). Gruppe designation are written in Roman numerals. (I./, II./, III./, IV./,)

Since the numeral is Black/Red we know it's the 2nd Staffel of the I./Gruppe. 2nd Staffel written as 2./JG 27.

We know its JG 27 because of the Geschwader emblem.


Regardless of the nose / rudder color that's an E-6/Trop of 2./JG 27. I will dig out my book and find a picture that shows the nose and tail much clearer tomorrow.

[Krusty]

Please do, because I need more proof. Your scan has the contrast and bright outta whack, but if you look at Jaws it's a bit more balanced. Part of it's the age of the photo, but on his you can tell it's not a shadow, it's green paint. The shadows are below the plane. On the scan you posted the entire thing looks burnt in, color wise, so I can see how you might think it's some sort of shadow. Maybe both color scans are off, but sometimes when you monkey with the colors in photoshop (not to save, just to play with) you can tell where different shades begin and end, and can see some colors better than without adjustment.

I'm still firmly of the belief that this image shows a green nose.

[Krusty]

I'm of the opinion now that we're both correct. I went through some of the images I pulled off the 'Net back when I started getting ideas for 109 skins. Some show various JG27 birds with sand/olive mottles.

Some show the same paint scheme on an E-4 with no yellow nose and no yellow rudder, and some show the same paint scheme on an E-7 with yellow nose and yellow rudder.

So the yellow was a later addition, and by that time they had upgraded to E7s.

Note that a pointed spinner alone does not make a plane an E-7, and some E-4s were retro-fitted in the field with them. I personally like the pointed spinner look better than the blunt one, but in AH we got what we gots.