Bf109K-4 with cannon pods: sources (part II)

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Karnak
Dan,

That is the thing though, the Mk XVI in AH can take the two rockets if the player wants to.

In my opinion two rockets are pretty worthless, so I doubt it gets used much, the the option is there. (They even redid the 3D model for the rockets on the MK XVI)

Would you agree that the notion of gondolas on Fs or Ks has more to do with MA, kill em quick, then anything historical for ToD?

The XVI is set up for the ground attack role it would have played historically aka ToD

[Karnak]

Dan,

Yes, that is self evident.

I don't think the two rockets on the Spit ever got used very much as they don't do enough damage.  Rockets are only really useful in quantity.  I was just pointing out that it does have them.

From my AH1 testing 8 of the RAF rockets is slightly more than 1000lbs of bombs in effectiveness.  That would make the two 250lb bombs about twice as powerful as the two rockets.

[gatt]

The G-10 had gondolas and no one whined in the past. Very few players are buff hunters and the G-10 with gondolas was a pretty fat target for many other aircraft in the arena.

It is weird to see so many players against pods on the K-4, argumenting like lawyers about them, defending last HTC loadout policy.

Was the arena unbalanced when the G-10 with pods was in the hangar? Did we have photos, documents, trials, factory numbers and squadron diaries to support such loadout? And, as far as performance is concerned, the K-4 and the G-10 are equal (HTC words).

Do all the experten wake up now that someone is asking to have something *back*? Not something more. Not a non existent Rustsatze. Not something not delivered to JG.

Really weird ...

[Karnak]

Gatt,

It has zero to do with balance and 100% to do with historical representation.  It is the same reason you'll only ever see me advocate against quad cannon Spits and why I pushed for so long to get corrected Spit models and am very happy to have finally gotten them.

[1K3]

Shouldnt u guys be happy with 109K-4?  109K is also one of the most requested planes in AH.

[1K3]

Originally posted by gatt
The G-10 had gondolas and no one whined in the past. Very few players are buff hunters and the G-10 with gondolas was a pretty fat target for many other aircraft in the arena.

It is weird to see so many players against pods on the K-4, argumenting like lawyers about them, defending last HTC loadout policy.

Was the arena unbalanced when the G-10 with pods was in the hangar? Did we have photos, documents, trials, factory numbers and squadron diaries to support such loadout? And, as far as performance is concerned, the K-4 and the G-10 are equal (HTC words).

Do all the experten wake up now that someone is asking to have something *back*? Not something more. Not a non existent Rustsatze. Not something not delivered to JG.

Really weird ...

HTC took the sissy way out by modeling 109G-10 instead of 109K-4 5 years ago.  They modeled 109G-10 with 109K-4's performance.  The real 109G-10 should have the performance similar to 109G-14.

[MANDO]

Originally posted by Karnak
Gatt,

It has zero to do with balance and 100% to do with historical representation.

Of course

Still waiting for a question: were the 190A5 MG17 and 190A8 MG131 "historically" removed by their pilots? Were they taking off without loading their ammo?

Do you remember that interesting AMI planes option of loading half the ammo?

[Karnak]

1K3,

The Bf109G-10 would have had better performance at altitude than the Bf109G-14 and would have topped out at about 425mph.

They are significantly different aircraft.


MANDO,

Good points.  I'd love the option to dump them.  Can't you post some data on the frequency of that?

[gatt]

Originally posted by Karnak
Gatt,
It is the same reason you'll only ever see me advocate against quad cannon Spits and why I pushed for so long to get corrected Spit models and am very happy to have finally gotten them.

Ah Karnak, I dont remember how many times I asked for more mid-late war Spitfires. It was a shame to have only that early MkIX.

And see what I got, I lost my beloved G-10 with and without pods

But I dont give up ....

[ghi]

Originally posted by gatt
Very few players are buff hunters and the G-10 with gondolas was a pretty fat target for many other aircraft in the arena.

...

 I flew the G10 with gondolas, most of the time, but was not soo"fat target", the diference in flight turn, climb were not  bad with gondies. Intercepting  bombers was my best fun.
  Imop, in ToD, the role of LW is going to be more bomber interception than dogfight, K-4 is not eficient without gondies, cuz the hit chances and balistic of mk108 is more lottery  than training and experience,

[Karnak]

Originally posted by gatt
Ah Karnak, I dont remember how many times I asked for more mid-late war Spitfires. It was a shame to have only that early MkIX.

And see what I got, I lost my beloved G-10 with and without pods

But I dont give up ....

Remember though that my old request from years ago had been to simply remove the rockets and .50 cals from the Spit IX with no gain at all in another Spitfire.

[Krusty]

I can see why the F4 lost gondolas. Sure, it's a gameplay balance issue. You can still get kills with the F4, just not as many and not against a horde. However when used in historical scenarios, it is a better representation of the F4.

However the loss on the K4 baffles me. The plane is all but useless. I fear the G14 more than K4. I've seen a lot of K4s that had me dead to rights, square in their gunsite, and I saw the single tracer from the prop go whizzing past-- and missed me by a mile every time. This weapon (the 30mm) has always been screwed up royally since AH1 came out. C'est la Vie. C'est la Guer. Without gondolas I won't ever fear a 109K4. It's just not worth worrying about when the G14 is about, and even that flies like the old G6 (which is nothing to brag about) so it's easily dealt with.

[Meyer]

Originally posted by 1K3
 The real 109G-10 should have the performance similar to 109G-14.

Not really....well maybe with the G-14/AS

The G-10 should have a perfomance very similar to the K-4 at same engine rating (just a bit slower)

Don't be confused with the denomination, both planes were contemporary (IIRC the K-4 enter in service even before the G-10).

[Bruno]

Karnak,

Originally posted by Karnak
Which, to my mind, they have done on both the Bf109s and Spitfires, with the possible exception of rockets on the Spitfire Mk XVI on which I have no information.  Dan very well may have that information though.

For example the Spitfires lack their rarer, larger droptanks. in AH as they were not the norm.

That's what it looks like to me as well. Yet, to others this is just another reason to cry and whine...




Dan,

I can point to 39 different engine, wing, armament combinations for the Spitfire V. I can scream to high heaven about how unfair it is we don't have all 39 combinations.

But that doesn't make sense. What gives us the best representative line up of Spitfires? I think HTC has done that fairly well and I'll not complain.

Personally I think the 109 line up looks pretty good too.

I agree 100% (provided the G-14 gets adjusted a bit)

How common was it on the Fs and Ks?

For the F-4 only the F-4/R1 - R VII (MG151/20 Gondolas). Only 240 F-4/R1s were produced and even fewer actually had gondolas.

For the K-4, every pilot anecdote I have read in regards to the K-4 and gondolas hated them and removed them. I don't how many but JG26 received K-4s with gondolas.

Would you agree that the notion of gondolas on Fs or Ks has more to do with MA, kill em quick, then anything historical for ToD?

That's exactly what it is all about.




Gatt,

The G-10 had gondolas and no one whined in the past. Very few players are buff hunters and the G-10 with gondolas was a pretty fat target for many other aircraft in the arena.

Most didn't care because the old G-10 wasn't even a G-10 to begin with. It was always a K-4 in performance with inaccurate load out options. Now its fixed and represents a true K-4. Also, no one even whined to make sure there were no gondolas for the K-4. Please point to one post that can be considered a whine in regards to gondolas needing to be removed.

It is weird to see so many players against pods on the K-4, argumenting like lawyers about them, defending last HTC loadout policy.

Who are those 'many players against pods on the K-4'? I am not against them, I simply don't care. Who else? Karnak? He said he didn't care either. The whole thing is a non-issue. I bet 90% of folks who play AH could careless. Its only the same 3 or so folks keep yapping for gondolas. If HTC is going added them it sure won't be because of the 'where's my gondola' threads that pop up every 2 days.




Ik3,

HTC took the sissy way out by modeling 109G-10 instead of 109K-4 5 years ago. They modeled 109G-10 with 109K-4's performance. The real 109G-10 should have the performance similar to 109G-14.

Nonsense, they called it the G-10 simple so they could slip in the MG151/2cm option and nothing else. The G-10 was completely different in terms of performance over the G-14. The G-10 and G-14 aren't the 'same'.




MANDO,

Still waiting for a question: were the 190A5 MG17 and 190A8 MG131 "historically"

Karnak didn't say 'historically', he said:

historical representation

Which mean aircraft the are more 'representative of history'. Some 190 pilots removed the cowl guns etc.. But this was hardly  the norm and in no way would be 'historical representation'.

There are no Ami aircraft in AH that take 1/2 ammo. There's standard and overload.




ghi,

Imop, in ToD, the role of LW is going to be more bomber interception than dogfight, K-4 is not eficient without gondies, cuz the hit chances and balistic of mk108 is more lottery than training and experience,

I bet you would be wrong. If the late 109s are tasked with 'buff hunting' in ToD then ToD will suck and fail. 109s (light gruppe) should be tasked with providing cover for the heavy gruppe, mostly 190s. If 109s fail to cover and protect the true buff hunters and engage the bombers then they should fail their mission. As such there should be no need for the K-4 to have gondolas in ToD. Ya think maybe that is why HTC didn't bother to add them to begin with?

As Dan suggested above this gondola campaign is about:

the notion of gondolas on Fs or Ks has more to do with MA, kill em quick, then anything historical for ToD...

[1K3]