Author Topic: Democrats are now losing the American Public  (Read 1062 times)

Offline Dead Man Flying

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Democrats are now losing the American Public
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2005, 09:02:47 AM »
This  corroborates the poll results.  I find the question wording a bit odd in the first couple of questions -- not in any intentionally biased way, mind you.  However, if you were to remove the partisan identifier before the word "senators" I suspect that the results would change dramatically.  If you were to change it to "Republican" it would probably differ radically as well.  That's a question that requires very delicate handling.  For the sake of argument, I'll assume they handled it well and tested its validity through pilot surveys.

Interesting to note in the results (based on a summary I read in a press release accompanying the survey) is that Independents overwhelmingly buy the argument that Democratic criticism hurts morale.  These are the same Independents who, in other national polls, have dragged down Bush's job approval ratings.  That's an interesting dilemma that Republicans and Democrats alike need to solve by 2006.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Offline Thrawn

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Democrats are now losing the American Public
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2005, 09:08:15 AM »
"Conducted November 17-20, 2005"

;)

Offline Sakai

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Democrats are now losing the American Public
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2005, 10:12:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
not only is it terrible for the moral of our troops, especially more so when one old crusty marine loses him mind, it emboldens, motivates, and inspires those that are killing our troops, especially our young marines.


What nonsense.

The Bush admin today released a plan to withdraw, the very thing guys like you said they never could do!

The admin said the plan was like Murtha's, they were quite surprised how close it was.

Bwahahahahahahahaha

Sakai
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Offline Gunslinger

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Democrats are now losing the American Public
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2005, 12:09:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sakai
What nonsense.

The Bush admin today released a plan to withdraw, the very thing guys like you said they never could do!

The admin said the plan was like Murtha's, they were quite surprised how close it was.

Bwahahahahahahahaha

Sakai


Is it an imediate withdraw or just a "plan" like the leftist have been asking for.  Does it include an actual plan for victory?  Do you have a link?

Offline Sakai

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Democrats are now losing the American Public
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2005, 12:34:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
Is it an imediate withdraw or just a "plan" like the leftist have been asking for.  Does it include an actual plan for victory?  Do you have a link?


You bet bud:

The white house said that their plan looks like Democrat Joe Biden's plan.  Biden is not stupid in the foreign policy/military area and mimicking his plan will give the Admin precious support across the aisle.  Smart move that.  

GOP senators are also calling for a withdrawal and better management and more accountability, having done so the day after Bush called anyone asking for same a traitor which cut Bush off at the knees politically; at some point we need to focus as Murtha did on what is best for the military.  This white house lost control of the issue and is now scrambling to find a stake large enough to sit at the table.  Too bad, they had a great chance after 9/11 to be really special and gambled it away on a hunch on Iraq.  

Here's the White house press release story:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1521&ncid=1505&e=2&u=/afp/20051127/pl_afp/usiraqtroops_051127192003

Story notes:

Even though Bush has never publicly issued his own withdrawal plan and criticized calls for an early exit, the White House said many of the ideas expressed by the senator were its own.

The Biden plan calls for preparatory work to be done in the first six months of next year, ahead of the envisaged pullout. It includes:

- forging a compromise among Iraqi factions, under which the Sunnis must accept that they no longer rule Iraq and *****es and Kurds admit them into a power-sharing arrangement;

- building Iraq's governing capacity;

- transferring authority to Iraqi security forces;

- establishing a contact group of the world's major powers to become the Iraqi government's primary international interlocutor.

Now, ask yourself how a White House that said you simply could not enunciate a plan had one drawn up?  They're in a flat spin, time to go to Reagan's 2nd term playbook.  

Here's a great interview with a trainer of police, 30 year US military vet, fresh off one year in Iraq regarding the feasibility of Murtha's proposal:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5028206

The guy basically says we have to fight these bastards and Murtha's plan makes sense.

Sakai
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Offline Gunslinger

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Democrats are now losing the American Public
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2005, 12:44:10 PM »
personally I don't recall Bush ever calling anyone a traitor.  Referring to some of the criticism he and the war are getting for partison political gain is dangerous (wich it is) and that those playing such games (mostly democrats) need to stop.  There werent just talks of the murtha plans many openly criticise the president and the war calling for wthdrawl without any clear victory.

Offline parker00

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Democrats are now losing the American Public
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2005, 01:06:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
post something based on fact that has validity and you are welcome here.  Flame and troll and call American's Nazis and you will probably get shown the door.

I don't see how that is pandering or brown nosing



Funny coming from someone who spends his entire day searching the internet looking for crap to post about democrats. Really the only posts you ever make are to flame and troll and nothing else.

Offline Krusher

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Democrats are now losing the American Public
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2005, 01:10:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
personally I don't recall Bush ever calling anyone a traitor.  Referring to some of the criticism he and the war are getting for partison political gain is dangerous (wich it is) and that those playing such games (mostly democrats) need to stop.  There werent just talks of the murtha plans many openly criticise the president and the war calling for wthdrawl without any clear victory.



He didn't, but he did release a 5 point plan last year prior to the first election election.  I don't see much of a difference in the major details. Bush even mentioned going from 138,000 to a force below 115,000 so if its less than that I would say we are doing even better.  

The dem leaders have made it clear their goal is to steal a victory by claiming it has been their idea and bush is following them LOL.



transcript

The first of these steps will occur next month, when our coalition will transfer full sovereignty to a government of Iraqi citizens who will prepare the way for national elections. On June 30th,  the Coalition Provisional Authority will cease to exist, and will not be replaced. The occupation will end, and Iraqis will govern their own affairs. America's ambassador to Iraq, John Negroponte, will present his credentials to the new president of Iraq. Our embassy in Baghdad will have the same purpose as any other American embassy, to assure good relations with a sovereign nation. America and other countries will continue to provide technical experts to help Iraq's ministries of government, but these ministries will report to Iraq's new prime minister.


The second step in the plan for Iraqi democracy is to help establish the stability and security that democracy requires. Coalition forces and the Iraqi people have the same enemies -- the terrorists, illegal militia, and Saddam loyalists who stand between the Iraqi people and their future as a free nation. Working as allies, we will defend Iraq and defeat these enemies.

America will provide forces and support necessary for achieving these goals. Our commanders had estimated that a troop level below 115,000 would be sufficient at this point in the conflict. Given the recent increase in violence, we'll maintain our troop level at the current 138,000 as long as necessary. This has required extended duty for the 1st Armored Division and the 2nd Light Cavalry Regiment -- 20,000 men and women who were scheduled to leave Iraq in April. Our nation appreciates their hard work and sacrifice, and they can know that they will be heading home soon. General Abizaid and other commanders in Iraq are constantly assessing the level of troops they need to fulfill the mission. If they need more troops, I will send them. The mission of our forces in Iraq is demanding and dangerous. Our troops are showing exceptional skill and courage. I thank them for their sacrifices and their duty.

The third step in the plan for Iraqi democracy is to continue rebuilding that nation's infrastructure, so that a free Iraq can quickly gain economic independence and a better quality of life. Our coalition has already helped Iraqis to rebuild schools and refurbish hospitals and health clinics, repair bridges, upgrade the electrical grid, and modernize the communications system. And now a growing private economy is taking shape. A new currency has been introduced. Iraq's Governing Council approved a new law that opens the country to foreign investment for the first time in decades. Iraq has liberalized its trade policy, and today an Iraqi observer attends meetings of the World Trade Organization. Iraqi oil production has reached more than two million barrels per day, bringing revenues of nearly $6 billion so far this year, which is being used to help the people of Iraq. And thanks in part to our efforts -- to the efforts of former Secretary of State James Baker, many of Iraq's largest creditors have pledged to forgive or substantially reduce Iraqi debt incurred by the former regime.


The fourth step in our plan is to enlist additional international support for Iraq's transition. At every stage, the United States has gone to the United Nations -- to confront Saddam Hussein, to promise serious consequences for his actions, and to begin Iraqi reconstruction. Today, the United States and Great Britain presented a new resolution in the Security Council to help move Iraq toward self-government. I've directed Secretary Powell to work with fellow members of the Council to endorse the timetable the Iraqis have adopted, to express international support for Iraq's interim government, to reaffirm the world's security commitment to the Iraqi people, and to encourage other U.N. members to join in the effort. Despite past disagreements, most nations have indicated strong support for the success of a free Iraq. And I'm confident they will share in the responsibility of assuring that success.


The fifth and most important step  is free, national elections, to be held no later than next January. A United Nations team, headed by Carina Perelli, is now in Iraq, helping form an independent election commission that will oversee an orderly, accurate national election. In that election, the Iraqi people will choose a transitional national assembly, the first freely-elected, truly representative national governing body in Iraq's history. This assembly will serve as Iraq's legislature, and it will choose a transitional government with executive powers. The transitional national assembly will also draft a new constitution, which will be presented to the Iraqi people in a referendum scheduled for the fall of 2005. Under this new constitution, Iraq will elect a permanent government by the end of next year.

Offline Sakai

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Democrats are now losing the American Public
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2005, 01:12:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
personally I don't recall Bush ever calling anyone a traitor.  Referring to some of the criticism he and the war are getting for partison political gain is dangerous (wich it is) and that those playing such games (mostly democrats) need to stop.  There werent just talks of the murtha plans many openly criticise the president and the war calling for wthdrawl without any clear victory.


Well, one might say that saying that you undermine our troops is calling people traitors.

Calling people names like that and then the next week flip flopping and doing what you said could not ever be done no way no how for political gain, as Bush plainly just did, is the lowest form of cowardice.

There is no clear victory possible, none.  So pick how we're going to "declare" it a victory, meet those goals and bail out.

Sakai
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Offline Krusher

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Democrats are now losing the American Public
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2005, 01:24:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sakai
Well, one might say that saying that you undermine our troops is calling people traitors.

Sakai




Did you actually read the first post of this thread?


Becauseeeeeeee............

Quote

Gunslinger posted:
Democrats fumed last week at Vice President Cheney's suggestion that criticism of the administration's war policies was itself becoming a hindrance to the war effort. But a new poll indicates most Americans are sympathetic to Cheney's point.

Seventy percent of people surveyed said that criticism of the war by Democratic senators hurts troop morale  -- with 44 percent saying morale is hurt "a lot," according to a poll taken by RT Strategies. Even self-identified Democrats agree: 55 percent believe criticism hurts morale, while 21 percent say it helps morale.



well, one might say that 70 percent of the public are calling people traitors.

I don't think thats what the poll is about, but you can read it anyway you want to.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2005, 02:08:17 PM by Krusher »

Offline Sakai

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Democrats are now losing the American Public
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2005, 01:36:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusher
Did you actually read the first post of this thread?

I don't think thats wht the poll is about, but you can read it anyway you want to.


Well, I hate to point out the obvious to you but, if you doubt the polls import and veracity, why are you hanging your hat on it?

I mean, that's as bright as one week saying you simply can't ever float a plan then rushing one out the next week like W just did.

Does the GOP have any credibility left?

No.

The GOP senators calling for reason are out to save themselves by removing their political lives from the failures of W's demagoguery.

Might read up on the wheels coming off inside the white house.  Bush will end up making Nixon look like Gandhi.

Hey, there's his legacy!

"I made them forget about Nixon!"

Wooooooootttttt!

Sakai
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Offline Krusher

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Democrats are now losing the American Public
« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2005, 02:07:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sakai

Well, I hate to point out the obvious to you but, if you doubt the polls import and veracity, why are you hanging your hat on it?  


I am not hanging my hat on it at all, just pointing out your previous post lack of credibility.

Quote

I mean, that's as bright as one week saying you simply can't ever float a plan then rushing one out the next week like W just did.


See there you go again, I posted the plan he detailed a year prior, and you ignore it because it doesn't fit your argument.

Offline Krusher

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Withdrawal from Iraq ? Here Is the Timetable
« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2005, 02:58:03 PM »
More on that time table from the former Middle East editor for the London Sunday Times.  His points enforce what Bush put on the table a year prior to the current proposal. The fact that some dems are trying to claim it as their own is par for the political course.

I suggest the entire article be read to gain so perspective the yahoo news source omitted


Withdrawal from Iraq ? Here Is the Timetable
Amir Taheri  
25/11/2005

 
Those Democrat politicians in Washington, who had backed the war with as much enthusiasm as George W Bush, are now using the issue of withdrawal as a means of distancing themselves from their initial positions. The Arab reactionaries who shuddered at the thought of a despot being toppled by foreign intervention are now clinging to the withdrawal slogan in the hope of sabotaging the process of democratisation in Iraq. In Europe, professional anti-Americans of all ilks are trying to cover their political nakedness with the “ withdrawal” fig leaf.

The truth, however, is that a timetable has been in place from the first day of the war that ended the Ba’athist tyranny in 2003. In that timetable the coalition’s military presence in Iraq is, as it should be, linked to the programme for the nation’s political reconstruction.

Any checklist would clearly show that the Iraq project has been more successful than Saddam nostalgics with to portray. The first objective, to bring down Saddam Hussein, was achieved in three weeks.


The next objective was to break the apparatus of oppression created by the Ba’ath. Despite some residual problems that objective, too, has been achieved. Another objective was to break Saddam’s war machine that had been used against Iraq’s neighbours as well as the Kurds and the Shi’ites. After just three years nothing is left of that infernal machine.

One could continue the checklist with the formation of the Governing Council representing the first step towards the restoration of Iraqi sovereignty.

Next on the checklist we have the transfer of sovereignty to the Iraqis that was accomplished in June 2004.

That was followed by the formation of an interim government, a series of municipal elections, a general election leading to the formation of Iraq’s first pluralist government, the writing of a new constitution and a referendum to get it approved. The next item on the checklist is the general election scheduled for 15 December.

The checklist clearly shows that every objective included in the political programme has been achieved within the exact timeframe fixed by the new Iraqi leadership and its coalition allies.

A key element in all this has been the explicit understanding by both the Iraqi leaders and the coalition that no foreign troops will remain on Iraqi soil without the express agreement of the nation’s elected representatives. In other words the timetable for withdrawal already exists and the mechanism for starting it could be triggered by the parliament and the government that will merge from next month’s general election.

In fact the first item on the agenda of the next elected government, to be formed by next February at the latest, consists of a decision on the presence of coalition troops in Iraq. It was with that understanding that the United Nations agreed to end its largely negative stance on Iraq and play a role in helping the country in efforts to build a new political system.


The idea of a timetable for withdrawal from Iraq has been built into the entire project from day one.

Offline Sakai

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Democrats are now losing the American Public
« Reply #43 on: November 28, 2005, 03:03:21 PM »
4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2005, 03:22:18 PM by MP4 »
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Offline Krusher

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Democrats are now losing the American Public
« Reply #44 on: November 28, 2005, 03:16:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sakai
4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.



Sakai some things never change.
You can count on Sakai to fall back on the same things.

ignore or change the subject,  insult ones intelligence or refer to their opinions as childish, immature or lacking credibility. Type a bwaaahhaaa or lol (or something you can do on bigweek but not here), curse like a tough guy. I see the closest thing you have is a butt reference.

You sir need to get  new act this one is predictable but rather tedious.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2005, 03:22:44 PM by MP4 »