Author Topic: What if........ (Read 487 times)

humble · « **on:** November 28, 2005, 11:52:39 AM »

I dont venture into the back and forth here much (except of course to trash the 109:)).....

But more seriously as you look thru the various possibilities its clear that the RLM was actually looking to replace the 109 as early as 1936. In 1938 the germans actually had an alternative with a top speed of 668km/h (416 mph) and a "design speed" of 435mph. Udet set the then world speed record of 394.6 mph on June 5th, 1938 in the #3 prototype. Prototype #4 reached 416 mph at 16,400 ft in the fall of 1938.

This plane was never utilized by the germans but was the insperation for both the mig 1 & lagg-3.

So in 1939 the germans had the most advanced single engine fighter in the world (by a large margin) and chose not to but it into service since it required the DB601 engine for both the 109 and 110 (the two "dogs of the luftwaffe")......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_100 (good basic 411 on the bird)

Furball · « **Reply #1 on:** November 28, 2005, 12:28:05 PM »

because the 109 is the greatest fighter ever that could out perform any allied fighter with better fuel efficiency and was never shot down once.

idiot.

Krusty · « **Reply #2 on:** November 28, 2005, 02:29:21 PM »

The He100 had a high wing loading which was not liked by the pilots. It also used (originally) non-draggy surface evaporation to make the speed records. This system was unreliable and complex. The He100D dropped it in favor of standard draggy radiators, but this slowed it down. Further, adding weapons to the plane (I believe they were all unarmed, unfortunately) would have weighted it down and slowed it down as well.

While it was impressive on paper, it wasn't given the full attention it needed to become a real plane.

The RLM wasn't effectively looking to replace the 109. The 109 was still new at the time, and they wanted to keep their options open. After that, Hitler's crony Wili Messerschmitt got the "Good Old Boy" seal of approval, and because DB engines were so hard to produce Wili got them all, nobody else could use them (which is why the FW190 was a hit -- it didn't use the scarce BD600-series engines).

EDIT: Heinkel began the project without an RLM requirement for it, just checked in a book I've got. The RLM found out about it when the project was ready to begin, and assigned a number "100".

Also, your statement that in 1936 they were already looking for a replacement is wrong as well. The 109 was still in prototypes in '36. The B-1 production model only becan production in 1937, and it wasn't until the D that the 109 used the DB engine (D came out in 38 or 39 -- I'm not sure which), so there would be no problem with Heinkel using the DB in 1936.

EDIT2:No problem, that is, except the engine wasn't ready at the time (heh heh)

Knegel · « **Reply #3 on:** November 28, 2005, 04:00:48 PM »

Hi,

It simply was to smal to fit a more heavy engine(it already was heavy wingloaded with only 2500kg weight) and the so often shown Vmax was made with a unknown power, this datas often get compared with the combat/climb 109E4 speed.
Afaik there are no datas available under normal test conditions.

The He100, same like the Me209(109R) got used much for propaganda purpose, if this plane would have had such speeds without other bad disadvantages, latest in 1941 they would have looked for it. Even in 1943 its best datas are very good.

But i guess the datas are made with the 1700-1800hp engine, same like the Me109 in 1937, which reached 611km/h(not the 209)!

The normal He100D had a Db601M engine, which probably was similar to the DB601N or E and did need C3 fuel. So if someone wanna compare the He100, he need to use the E4N/E7N or F1 WEP datas!

This are the datas i found for the He100 D1:
2500kg max
14,4m²
DB601M 1175HP (dont know the altitude)
560km/h sea level
668km/h 6400m
1 x 20mm MGFFm
2 x 7,92mm MG17

I dont found any sources regarding plating, selfseling tanks etc.

At least the ground crew disliked the airframe, cause it was difficult to maintance and the pilots was suprised about the very fast landing speed and long time to stop(actually i dont consider that as a problem, later planes was even more heavy and did need more space).

At a time when the LW still did need propaganda, the 109 also was claimed to be much faster(several world records etc), but as we know a real combat worthy plane perform much more bad than the unarmed prototype!

Greetings,

humble · « **Reply #4 on:** November 28, 2005, 04:56:32 PM »

No question that the He-100 was an unfinished project with significant teething issues to overcome. It's raw potential is just about impossible for an unbiased observer to ignore. Had it been embraced and supported I'd venture that the british would have been faced with a 400mph+ adversary over Britain in the BoB.

Obviously the maintanence issues were real as well as the high wingloading. Even with projected changes and the added wieght of guns armor etc you'd still have a plane significantly faster than anything flying in 1940. Given the strides in power the DB series engine made and assuming reasonable development of the airframe you'd have your 435 mph bird in 41 or 42.

As for the speed records, that was not integral to the initial design but obviously in the back of the desingers mind. The plane that went 416 had the newer cooling system and was a more standardized prototype only lacking armourment.

As for the RLM...they were already looking to replace the 109, fockwulf also had a development project underway and both were only "secret" from uncle willy.

Did we ever give him a medal BTW....did more to win us the war then any other man on earth:)