Author Topic: HO bubble (Read 5160 times)

AKFokerFoder+ · « **Reply #90 on:** November 29, 2005, 01:24:45 PM »

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Originally posted by Karnak
That is not an HO. If the other guy cannot get a gun solution on you it cannot be considered an HO.

Often on the 2nd or 3rd merge we are once again coming into a nose on nose situation. I try to avoid that, and often lose a wing. Next time I think I'll just go for the "high angle deflection shot" and when the bogey whines on 200, I'll just say the guys on the BBS said that it wasn't a HO.

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak

That is just poor planning on the rope. Why give the guy a shot when you can wait for him to stall and then shoot him in the ass?

Hey, I'm just doing what I see. Shane is a master at that move.

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Originally posted by Karnak
I dunno, I see them all the time.

You seem to be puting anything vaguely frontal into the HO category. That is a common error.

Hardly vaguely frontal, those bogeys are trying to get their noses around and give you a full shot in the face. That othe night with the 110, I could have gone nose to nose after about a half dozen yo yo's, but I chose to try to avoid it. Had I gone nose to nose (not a HO by your standards) the 110 would have blown my hog to bits, and only taken minimal damage from the 50cal American pee shooters.

Again, the consenses is, get your nose around and give him a face full of cannons. I think I can learn to do that, expecially now that I have found out about the stall limiter.

Shane · « **Reply #91 on:** November 29, 2005, 01:31:16 PM »

AKfoder, my offer remains, feel free to use /.join for a few sorties with me and see how I get things done before dying gloriously underwhelmed by mediocrity.

Knite · « **Reply #92 on:** November 29, 2005, 01:37:42 PM »

Other than my half-smartalek answer earlier, I figure I could clarify.....

First off, if a bullet would do damage, it should do damage IMO. HOs suck to die by, and I still do, but not nearly as often as I used to. Most HOs CAN BE AVOIDED. As I said before, it's gotten to where if someone goes for the HO first, I have more confidence in the fight (and if someone goes to HO, never fires a shot, and I notice a merge maneuver at the point of crossing, I know I'm screwed ;-) ).

But when it comes to artificially limiting damage done, how do we determine what is the "proper" cone? What if I have a La7 on my 6 in my 38J, and am able to rolling scissor him into a shot at his front quarter? Would it be fair to limit me when I outflew the other pilot? What about against a bomber, when I'm diving out of the sun which happens to be at his 12:30 horizontal, 1:00 high? How about that 47 I roped and was able to rudder nose down as he's reaching stall speed? These aren't cheap "HOs", these are legitimate maneuverings that IMO deserve reward, not limitation.

So other than limiting what would happen realisitically, what are some other ways we can limit HOs?

Personally, I love the idea of chaning the ranging system. We don't need to eliminate it entirely, but currently, we see ranges from 6k in... how about a plane indicator at 6k, and the plane TYPE change at 2k, but no range indicator, just a +/- sign such as...

-bishsymbol- SPIT +
(It means you're gaining on a Bishop Spitfire between 2k and 6k from you)

-rooksymbol- P51D -
(You're losing distance on a Rook P-51D closer than 2k from you)

It'd still give an idea of what you're up against, including the country, but eliminate the huge 2 line icons, eliminiate the specified distance, and make aiming more of a judging size to gunsight like it used to be, which may also make gunnery take more skill, including on bombers. Dunno if it would help against HOs, but definitely make aiming a little more..... "interesting" =)

Karnak · « **Reply #93 on:** November 29, 2005, 01:46:35 PM »

Krusty,

I think you are mistaking my comments about the range counter to be a general reference to icons. I did not mean it that way.

Keep the type icons as they are, keep the little chess piece icon and keep the +/- closure indicator, but dump the range indicator.

I really don't think it is needed with those other icon bits there. We can estimate range from the size of the aircraft just fine with out it.

Krusty · « **Reply #94 on:** November 29, 2005, 01:56:16 PM »

Ahhh. I did mis-read you. I'm not entirely sold. All we have from 8k on in to 1k is a single pixel. I think we need "far range" counters, but maybe stop at 1k (1.5k?) and just use +/- below that?

EDIT: Sorry for the hi-jack

hitech · « **Reply #95 on:** November 29, 2005, 02:01:11 PM »

AW Had diffenet types of head on gunnery, durring most of the time I was playing AW HO hits were not thrown out. but a person got a 3 wingspan buble for hits from the rear and a 1 wingspan bubble from the front quater.

People also seem to forget how with no collisions in AW, you would could head on in AW flying right threw the apponent with no worries of impact.

When a change was made to the randomly throwing out hits was the end of my FW flying days. Not because I liked to head on, but it took a very valid tatic away. In those days I would use a pure head on when ever I was at a disavantage. I.E. just finished a fight, slow on dec. and a spit is comming in. You can be sure I would take the head on in that case, because it was my only option if the guy wanted to fly right at me, and I had no speed to turn or manuver with him. But even more important than the pure head on was how it totaly removed the rope a dope. Against a resonable aponent ropes and using the vertical became almost inposible, because everone would just wait, and point there nose at you knowing there chances of being hit was very low, even thow they were stalled was required no lead to shoot them.

Changeing the chances of head on hits would have drastic impact on game play. It would drasticly shift to the best turning planes, because speed zoom and climb rates impact in a dog fight would be reducused, do to the fact all you would have to do is point your plane toward the boomer, and his pass would be defeted.

I belive Zazen argument about death promoting more head on's is completly backwards . Lack of death is what promotes the long turn and burn furballs. If life was more important you would see a lot more hit and run tatics, as oposed to getting slow and turning, hence enabling the next guy to kill you.

Docs Idea of no ICons is not workable either. People want to fight, not fly around looking for a fight.No Icons has been tried, and very quicly becomes boring. The range ICON if anything gives more opertunity to do lead turns,judge peoples E stat correctly hence enableing manuvers to defete the headon. With out the range I belive we would see even more headons.

HiTech

Karnak · « **Reply #96 on:** November 29, 2005, 02:02:41 PM »

Krusty,

Hmmm, I guess it depends on the resolution you play at. I can generally make out what kind of fighter I am facing at 1000 yards and at 6000 yards I can tell how many engines it has. I play at 1600x1200.

715 · « **Reply #97 on:** November 29, 2005, 02:09:35 PM »

OK. Let's suppose range information is removed. Now I am in a semi furball situation. I have to make a multivariant decision as to which enemy to attack and which are threats to me. How do I make that decision when 90% of the enemy appear to me in the form of a single pixel? From a single pixel I cannot tell how close they are or how soon they will be on me.

Also, I do not at all see how removing range information will in anyway affect the prevelance of head on attacks.

Karnak · « **Reply #98 on:** November 29, 2005, 02:11:04 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by 715
OK. Let's suppose range information is removed. Now I am in a semi furball situation. I have to make a multivariant decision as to which enemy to attack and which are threats to me. How do I make that decision when 90% of the enemy appear to me in the form of a single pixel?

Why would you have the icons turned off?

Shane · « **Reply #99 on:** November 29, 2005, 02:12:41 PM »

re-read what he actually wrote.

AKFokerFoder+ · « **Reply #100 on:** November 29, 2005, 02:20:24 PM »

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Originally posted by Shane
AKfoder, my offer remains, feel free to use /.join for a few sorties with me and see how I get things done before dying gloriously underwhelmed by mediocrity.

And I certainly hope to take you up on that kind offer. My statement that you are a master at that move was not meant to be a slam.

I believe that if a game is coded to be played in a certain way, then you can (and should) play it that way.

If HT wants to let us vulch a plane with wheels on the runway, he codes it that way. If he wants to stop that, then you would be bullet proof as long as you are wheels on the deck. Etc Etc.

I am in Kodiak AK this week, and can't play the game due to work. Hope to be back this week end

DoKGonZo · « **Reply #101 on:** November 29, 2005, 02:24:05 PM »

I didn't say "no icons" ... I said "no range numbers." You obviously need icons to find a fight. The people who saddle up for kills at less than D400 won't be affected that much by no range numbers. The people who need the range numbers to know when to start spewing lead at D800 on the HO will have a tougher time.

Zazen13 · « **Reply #102 on:** November 29, 2005, 02:26:02 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
Zazen13,

And the HOer's desperate, high G turn to try to get a gun solution on you as you avoid him doesn't waste gobs of energy?

Yeah right.

I never see HO'ers doing this, to take a HO shot even against a manuevering target is still a low deflection forward quarter shot, very little manuevering is required, nothing the evader does will remove him from the HOers forward quarter, therefore no reason to blow energy. Most 'professional Hoers can tell even before they start shooting whether they have a viable shooting opportunity or not. So, either they are HO'ing and hitting you or they are not but instead conserving E, watching what you are doing ready to exchange their E for an angle on you or egressing for a reset another joust pass.

Zazen

Shane · « **Reply #103 on:** November 29, 2005, 02:27:17 PM »

if you want no range data, simply cycle thru icons to "show friendly only"

of course you won't get plane type id either, but hey, you get close enough and it won't matter what type.

as much as we fly around in a "virtual" 3-d space, it's still visually 2-d.

CAV · « **Reply #104 on:** November 29, 2005, 04:21:36 PM »

Hi

I think what that needs fixing is the player base. In AW and WB's we had older players. This was in the days before everyone was gaming online. If you was like me... When I first started play AW I was reading anything and everything I was able to get my hands on about ACM. Todays players aren't coming from that type of background. They are guys who started their online gaming with "Playstations & Xboxes". All they understand is Kill, kill, kill.... and if they die... poof they are right back in the game... no penalty for death. So they have no reason to go out and try to learn about this thing called "ACM".

One of the things I loved about WW2OL (and sometimes hated) was there was a penalty for dieing... if you didn't get your ride back to base, it was gone for hours. OK, the air combat in WW2OL sucks but.... they do understand ACM over there. So you don't see many going head to head or doing suicidal low level bomb runs.

This is how I would fix the gameplay in AH... a penalty for dieing. All but a starter set of planes, bombers and GV get a perk cost. The free rides are the ( and I do not think of them this way) low end planes/GV... ie Spit 1, 109E, P40B, etc. Samething for the bombers. We would have to work out the perk cost for each AC/GV. Now to be fair all new players get xxx number of free perk points so they can fly all the AC too. The other thing I would do is reset the perk points at the start of each campaign to a starting number of points.... same as a new player. So if you have 10,000 perk points and fly off in Me262 any time you feel like it not caring if you RTb or not, in my system may not be able to all the time. You will have to work for the perk points.....

But on the other side of the coin... if the only thing you know how to do is HO in an La-7 or Dive bomb B-17's your are going to run out perk points fast....

I think this will force players into learning ACM, he how has a reason to do so.... because just going head to head is no longer "safe" to do.... "I need to kill, to get more perks, but I am low on points so I need to land the kills too"

Also it will change gameplay in the MA too. How we attack bases will change... more missions, more teamwork. Going alone into a CAPPED base to pork something will have cost too. And it will change how the furballers play too. With more missions there, hopefully will be more larger furballs... but here is going to be that voice in the back of the furballers head... saying as he dives in... "How am I going to get out that %%$## mess alive?".

With a system like this where you have a penalty for dieing hopefully will force players into think about ACM and learning it. With a penalty system something like this may make AH and the MA a better place to play. Anything would be better, as playing AH as things are right now is starting to suck and getting old fast.

CAVALRY