Author Topic: Guns and Ammo + MG and 20mm smoke puffs test.  (Read 2169 times)

Offline Wilbus

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Guns and Ammo + MG and 20mm smoke puffs test.
« on: December 01, 2005, 04:16:48 AM »
Did some offline testing to find out wether there was a difference between MG hits and 20mm hits as far as hit sprites (smoke puffs) go.


First, DarkBlue, I am just using our fight as a discussion purpose. In no way what so ever is this a criticism against you. I am using it as I caught it on film and the shot was from very close range.

What made me tick was the fight between me and DarkBlue a few days ago where his spit got shot up pretty bad without dammage from close range by my Ki84, whereafter I lost my tail from a long range quick shot.

I fired both 20mm and MG's and have it on film.

Play the film in slow motion when I get to the firing point. Also, look at it from F3 view after chosing DarkBlues plane and view it from straight above his plane (giving you a view from the top will enable you to see all hits).



OK. To the test.

Here is the first screenshot showing MG only hits from the Ki84's MG's.

MG's are 12.7mm Ho-103's if I am not misstaking.




Note the quite small hit puffs.



This is a picture showing 20mm only hits from the same range (about 100 yards).



Note the much larger smoke puffs.


Finally, here is a picture taken from the film showing the smoke puffs after I had completed my fireing pass on the spit.



Those smoke puffs are 20mm without much doubt if you compare it with the above pictures. Yet, counting the puffs, seeing 5 on that picture alone, DarkBlue recieved no dammage. He said he got a single hole in his canopy.

Should HO-5's be this bad and so much worse then Hispanos?
I find it hard to believe a spit would take 5x20mm hits from close range without any sort of dammage, atleast Dark should've seen some holes etc.


Anybody have good info about Ho-5's as far as velocity and ammount of HE goes?

RPM is 900 per gun so very fast firing but they seem to be on par (dmg wise) with some MG's in the game.


OR, could this (finally) be rubber bullets caught on tape? (Yeah I know they don't exist).
« Last Edit: December 01, 2005, 04:21:08 AM by Wilbus »
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

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Offline Naytch

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IN teresting...
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2005, 05:01:10 AM »
I think thats some pretty solid evidence of rubber bullets. A rake like that with 20mm's should give a spit at least a pilot wound, or an oil leak. I've received 2 hits from a ki84 on my wingtip and down to the ground I go, so I know that the guns on it aren't weak.

Alright, watched the film again. I counted 4 on the right wing, at least two on the left, two on the cockpit area, two more on the fuelslage and one on the tail. There are definitely more, but I also notice your machine guns were firing, so I dunno. But from that burst, he should've got an oil leak, or lost a flap. Maybe one of you have a bad connection?

P.S. That was a nice snapshot

Offline Wilbus

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Guns and Ammo + MG and 20mm smoke puffs test.
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2005, 05:24:14 AM »
and Thanks.

Yes I was firing all I had. But look at the screenshot with the smokepuffs on the spit. Compare it to the "MG Hits" screenshot of the P51 and "20mm Hits" on the P51. Those smoke puffs from on teh spit are from 20mm. Thus atleast 5 hits were 20mm.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

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Offline Wilbus

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Guns and Ammo + MG and 20mm smoke puffs test.
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2005, 06:37:56 AM »
OH Btw, why the "IN teresting"? :D

I hope this thread won't be closed so don't get your hopes up! :)
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

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Offline Kweassa

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Guns and Ammo + MG and 20mm smoke puffs test.
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2005, 06:58:21 AM »
I can't comment on if its right or wrong, because there are instances of planes making it back from severe hits that should in normal cases dropped the plane. It's an extreme case, but one such intance would be Robert Johnson's P-47 after his tangle with Egon Meyer's Fw190.

 Anyhow, there could be a number of reasons why the cannon hits to that Spitfire did not give off enough damage.

 I've seen the pic in that other thread, and from that angle, I count two hits on the left wing, one on the portside rear section behind the cockpit, and two very close to the starbordside cockpit. However, the sprites themselves are sometimes misleading, as there hit places are not always accurately displayed. Another reason is may be that the rounds may have a basic level of damage, but it depends on the relative conditions of the fight.

 Or, for some very unlucky reason, the hits may have been recorded at something like "1 point" before structural failure, but stopped just there. Two hits seem concentrated on the left wing, but it may not have been enough to snap it off. Since DrkBlue said he got a hole in his cockpit, it is pretty obvious some of the force of 20mm impact did penetrate through his cockpit glass and cracked it. However, the fact remains that it might not have been enough.


 
 One thing I can comment though, is that the limitations of the current damage modelling might be the reason DrkBlue survived, as we can assume that a better, more sophisticated damage modelling might have caused lot more complications for him.

 For instance;

1) if the angle of the screenshot you have on his Spitfire is the angle you fired at him, then the 20mm shells impacted almost 90 degrees to his left wing surface. Two cannon shells at that angle at close proximity,  would have dealt a very destructive blow to the surface of his left wing and would have ripped open a very large hole - immediately effecting the performance of the Spitfire, despite the fact it wasn't enough to snap the wing off.

 IF we assume a higher level of realism, one of the shells connected on his left wing might have been a AP or API round. It might have at least punctured his gearbox or with some luck, could have damaged the ammo box of his gun.


2) I do not observe any hits directly to the cockpit, and yet, DrkBlue said that he got a hole. This means there was a close impact of a 20mm HE shell to his cockpit glass(which, is pretty obvious from the screenshot). 20mm shells don't drill "holes" in the cockpit. It is entirely possible, that his cockpit glass held solid and did not cause any harm to the pilot - however, a close impact of a 20mm would have cracked the glass like a sledgehammer hit to a car windshield - a "web" like series of cracks that will immediately impair his rearward visibility, instead of the clear, simple, "hole".  


3) despite your logical analysis in this thread, we still can't really confirm if those hits are really all 20mms or not.. I think your basic analysis is logical, but to tell you the truth, I really can't be too sure if those are indeed, all 20mms. If AH would have displayed AP impacts and HE impacts seperately for guns of 23mm calibre and under, it might have been a lot easier to determine things.

4) however, since all AH bulltes are 'generic' currently, it's impossible to depict 20mm HE impacts in the 'blasts' as we can see in 37 or 30mm guns - since 20mm cannons had mixed ammo belts of AP and HE shells, but AH doesn't have mixed ammo belts at all!



 Thus, all in all, Wilbus, you were just unlucky. Some consolation may be found in that if AH had a better, more sophisticated form of showing damage, then the situation might have been a lot better to you. However, in the current AH, all damage to the cockpit glass is in "hole"s. There is no intermediate level of damage that effects performance - cannon shells don't rip surfaces, and AP shells can't hit cables or rods.

  Let's hope AH can update its form of basic damage modelling and ammo belt soon enough.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2005, 07:02:18 AM by Kweassa »

Offline Wilbus

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Guns and Ammo + MG and 20mm smoke puffs test.
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2005, 07:31:43 AM »
Rgr that Kweassa, on most of it atleast.

Not all hit sprites were 20mm no BUT there were atleast 5 20mm hits judging from smoke puffs. Had those been Hispanos instead the plane would've blown up.

As for the dammage modell I completely agree with you, I am one of those who have been requesting an improved dammage modell for years now.

Before I used to think that a dammage modell similair to Il2 would be too advanced for an Online sim but Targetware has clearly proven that is not the case.

Simple fact is that the only thing AH really lacks is a modern DM and thus some weapons have a clear and superior advantage which they wouldn't have otherwise.

More over, there were 5 20mm hits as far as I can tell from the smoke puffs + numerous 12.7mm hits (judging from flashes in the film).

Check the film and you will see what angle I fired from, it was not the same angle. I fired from more or less the side and slightly up under his belly so most of the hits were directly from the side or bellow. Those hits should've atleast have taken off a flap.

Second, when I got pissed off on channel 200 afterwards saying that I hit his cockpit I got the reply that he only had a single hole in him if I understood it the right way.

That is after atleast 13-15 hits of which atleast 5 were 20mm.
He should have more visable dammage after this, even if it means purly the eye-candy dammage we got in 2.00.

Unlucky? Yeah maybe, but give me, or anyone else, a good reason to fly the planes where you are often "unlucky" enough to have the enemy fly away without much more then a scratch.

While there can be a number of reason to why he didn't take any dammage what so ever there are more reasons to why he SHOULD have taken dammage.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

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Offline Kweassa

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Guns and Ammo + MG and 20mm smoke puffs test.
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2005, 11:00:50 AM »
Incidently, as you mentioned Targetware..

 ..what kind of DM do they have? Something like the IL-2 series? (ie.. a DM with 'internal' components such as cables, rods, oil pans, supercharger gears, cylinderheads + the usual 'external' components)

Offline Wilbus

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Guns and Ammo + MG and 20mm smoke puffs test.
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2005, 11:11:10 AM »
Kweassa, this is a dammage report from Target Tobruk. I copied this one from the forum as I don't have any reports on my computer at the moment.


Quote

051022 20:21:28 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left outer wing: pen 0.4 kJ
051022 20:21:28 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:28 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left outer wing: pen 0.4 kJ
051022 20:21:28 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:28 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left outer wing: pen 0.4 kJ
051022 20:21:28 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:28 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left inner wing: pen 0.7 kJ
051022 20:21:28 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:28 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm APIT, Macchi 200 Saetta left outer wing: pen 0.5 kJ
051022 20:21:28 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm APIT, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:28 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left inner wing: pen 0.7 kJ
051022 20:21:28 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:28 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left inner wing: pen 0.7 kJ
051022 20:21:28 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta v-stab: pen incen 0.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #2: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta aft fuselage: pen 3.7 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #3: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left inner wing: pen 1.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 12.70mm API, after 3 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta fuselage: pen incen 3.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #2: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta water injection tank: pen 6.3 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #3: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta crew_1: pen 1.7 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #4: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta main fuel: 0.1 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left h-stab: pen 0.9 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #2: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left inner wing: pen 2.2 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 12.70mm API, after 2 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta fuselage: pen 3.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #2: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta main fuel: pen 6.3 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #3: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta Central Wing: pen 0.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #4: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta forward fuselage: pen incen 0.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta aft fuselage: pen 1.3 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #2: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta fuselage: pen 0.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 2 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm APIT, Macchi 200 Saetta left inner wing: pen 0.9 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm APIT, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta fuselage: pen 1.3 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #2: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta crew_1: pen 0.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #3: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta main fuel: 0.0 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm APIT, Macchi 200 Saetta right inner wing: pen 0.9 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #2: 7.70mm APIT, Macchi 200 Saetta right bomb: 1.4 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left outer wing: pen 0.4 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta right inner wing: pen 0.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta aft fuselage: 0.0 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left outer wing: pen 0.4 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta right inner wing: pen 0.6 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta aft fuselage: pen 1.3 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #2: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left h-stab: pen 0.2 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #3: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left inner wing: pen 0.4 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 3 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 12.70mm APIT, Macchi 200 Saetta aft fuselage: pen 4.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #2: 12.70mm APIT, Macchi 200 Saetta left inner wing: pen 2.2 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 12.70mm APIT, after 2 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 12.70mm APIT, Macchi 200 Saetta left inner wing: pen incen 2.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 12.70mm APIT, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left inner wing: pen 0.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta aft fuselage: 0.1 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left inner wing: pen 0.6 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 7.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta left outer wing: pen 0.4 kJ
051022 20:21:50 OVERPENETRATION: Macchi 200 Saetta, 7.70mm API, after 1 parts hit
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #1: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta fuselage: pen 3.8 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #2: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta water injection tank: pen 6.3 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #3: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta crew_1: pen 1.6 kJ
051022 20:21:50 STRIKE #4: 12.70mm API, Macchi 200 Saetta main fuel: 0.1 kJ
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

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Offline DipStick

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Guns and Ammo + MG and 20mm smoke puffs test.
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2005, 11:12:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wilbus
(A) Not all hit sprites were 20mm no BUT there were atleast 5 20mm hits judging from smoke puffs. Had those been Hispanos instead the plane would've blown up.

(B) Before I used to think that a dammage modell similair to Il2 would be too advanced for an Online sim but Targetware has clearly proven that is not the case.

(A) Do 'smoke puffs' = a direct hit? I don't know. I can tell you I fly Seafire now and Spit V before and many times I have seen 6+ hit sprites, "plane parts flying off", etc... and got gotton a kill. Don't know if any other damage was done but nothing visable. Those were all cannon hits.

(B) I haven't tried Targetware, do they have 500+ in one arena?

Offline Wilbus

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Guns and Ammo + MG and 20mm smoke puffs test.
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2005, 11:16:38 AM »
AFAIK there is nothing but direct hits. Simple fact is that 20mm smoke puffs indicate explosion. He had 5x20mm explosions in his Spit, be it on the surface (which I don't think is modelled) or detonation inside the actual plane.

No targetware don't have 500+ plauers in the arena, neither does AH very often anymore ;)

But I understand your point of view, however, Targetware is designed as a massive online multiplayer flight game (sim depening on what data pack) so I am quite sure their goal is several hundred players and that the engine supports it.

Don't wanna mix in TW here, no need to, just saying that AH's DM is old, if you (not you in person DipStick) can't see that just look at how WB worked in 1995. Same general idea, "shoot of a part and this happens". While I am quite sure AH's DM is far far ahead of what WB was back then and what WB is now it is still.... old.
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Offline Karnak

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Guns and Ammo + MG and 20mm smoke puffs test.
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2005, 11:16:58 AM »
Wilbus,

I seem to recall that if a Hispano hit is rated at a value of 1 then the Ho-5 is rated at .71 and the hardest hitting machinegun, the Browning .50, is a .31.

I am not certain, but i seem to recall those numbers.
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Offline Wilbus

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Guns and Ammo + MG and 20mm smoke puffs test.
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2005, 11:25:02 AM »
Rgr Karnak, never heard those numbers or heard anything about it but will take your word for it.

Like I said above, and you said above, this is more of a general DM issue then a single gun issue. Problem is the "uber" guns win so much by this while some guns are just left out as piss poor weapons.

Easy stall and handeling are not the only reasons people fly Spits.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2005, 11:59:03 AM by Wilbus »
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Offline Kweassa

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Guns and Ammo + MG and 20mm smoke puffs test.
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2005, 11:48:47 AM »
That's Karnak, not kweassa :D


ps) ah, after seeing that text report.. I get the general idea.

Offline Wilbus

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Guns and Ammo + MG and 20mm smoke puffs test.
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2005, 11:58:38 AM »
DUH! Sorry bout that both of you, bit tired. Edited the post above.

Kweassa. I might add that every such hit has an effect on how the plane performs, it can be "felt".
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Offline hitech

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Guns and Ammo + MG and 20mm smoke puffs test.
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2005, 12:46:01 PM »
Wilbus: Ill do a break down of the film to see what bullets hit. But ill bet you just had an unlucky burst that falls at the outside of chances for damage.

HiTech