Author Topic: Guns and Ammo + MG and 20mm smoke puffs test. (Read 2108 times)

Morpheus · « **Reply #30 on:** December 07, 2005, 04:46:36 PM »

The Semi-Armour Piercing HEI 20mm hispano had a far greater impact on armour than did any of the 20mm projectiles produced by the germans. Late war was even worse for the germans as they did not have the resources needed to produce mass quanties of high grade ammunition. In fact its a known fact that that by wars end they were packing their cases with saw dust due to powder shortages.

Morpheus · « **Reply #31 on:** December 07, 2005, 04:55:30 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
Moepheus,

Well, the Hispano did not have an advantage in all aspects.
.

I should have clarified myself here. The 20x110 mm was far superior to any of the 20mm cartriges of WW2.

They also produced a seat for every ass. Dont think for a minute they just produced 2 kinds of bullets... SAP/HEI and tracers. They offered a wide veriety of rounds for many different jobs.

The germans, by wars end, did not have the capabilities to offer this. if you want, I can dig up diagrams of the hispano and the aray of projectiles used.

The japs where hurting so bad by the time the the Ho5 was put to use, that the guns were exploding due to the lack of quality steal. For this reason, they had to dramaticly download their 20mm ammunition.

The Hispano (Was and still) is to the Ho-5 what a Corvette is to a Yugo

Krusty · « **Reply #32 on:** December 07, 2005, 05:08:48 PM »

Sawdust? They also say that the Germans loaded their 30mm Mk 103s and Mk 108s with solid lead slugs. Doesn't mean it really happened.

Morpheus · « **Reply #33 on:** December 07, 2005, 05:19:52 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
Sawdust? They also say that the Germans loaded their 30mm Mk 103s and Mk 108s with solid lead slugs. Doesn't mean it really happened.

Do your homework. Its no mystery or myth. Yes due to shortages, they decreased powder content and to prevent detonation they packed the rest of the case with sawdust. This is not an uncommon practice even today.

The reason for the sawdust, again was to prevent detonation. When you have a big long case, and the powder is laying towards the front of the case rather than packed up against the primer.. When the primer ignites, the powder at the front of the case will blow back. If the powder is laying along the entire case itself, the powder will ignite and blow upwards. When you have the powder packed against the primer it will blow out (towards the bullet) thus pushing the bullet out. Loading of sawdust to prevent case detonation is done to this day. Its been done sinse the 1800s when the metalic cartirige came into its own. And it was done in WW2.

Many of the japanese guns had their breaches blown apart due to improper downloading techniques of their 20mm Ho5's cartiges. Its bad medicine. And when done improperly, can have very bad effects.

Krusty · « **Reply #34 on:** December 07, 2005, 05:23:08 PM »

interesting! I always thought that the powder simply burned from the source, and while it was burning the gasses started expanding, and that in theory it never mattered if the powder was packed or on its side. I always thought if the powder was loose and burned it would still shoot the bullet down the barrel.

Why, then, do they shake cartridges to mix the powder back up? Is that for something different?

Morpheus · « **Reply #35 on:** December 07, 2005, 05:41:42 PM »

I am not sure what you mean by shaking cartriges up.

I can say that if you have powder that has gotten wet, or moist and then dries inside the case, it becomes all or partially a solid mass... What has happened is it will partially ignite the powder, pushing the bullet down the barrel but not all the way out. It is most times, enough force to cylcle the action in a machine gun. The bullet will "stove pipe". (In a machine gun the RoF is fast enough that detection of this occurring is virtually imposible.) When the next round fires the gun will explode. Either by omiting enough backpressure to blow the breach off of the gun or turn the barrel into a banana peal.

I have Sako action at work from a 223 that detonated. It blew the barrel 50 yards down range, the forearm on the stock splintered into a million peices and split the action into 4 different pieces. I will take a picture of it tomorrow for you. What Im getting at is, that happend from a 223. A tiny little nothing compared to a 20mm.

hitech · « **Reply #36 on:** December 13, 2005, 12:44:55 PM »

Finaly got a chance to debug the film.

Results were exatly as expected. You had 6 hits.
2 MG hits 4 canon hits the

1 Cannon inside of the right wing.

2 mgs on the left wing

3 cannon spread accross the fuse.

I.E. no bug, just spread over an area.

HiTech

Wilbus · « **Reply #37 on:** December 13, 2005, 01:35:52 PM »

Thanks

Why do I see so many flashes? And why do I see them on far more places then just 6 places? Something to do with a hit consisting of multiple flashes?

Also, the smoke puffs. I guess 5 smoke puffs (looking like 20mm) really isn't 5 hits? Could it be more or less?

hitech · « **Reply #38 on:** December 13, 2005, 03:29:59 PM »

Wilbus: I hadn't noticed that before, looked into it and it is a bug with the film view. Basicly your hitsare recorded in the film, but the bullets being launched in the film are also striking the plane and creating more flashes.

HiTech

Wilbus · « **Reply #39 on:** December 13, 2005, 04:34:58 PM »

OK! Thanks again for replies. Helps alot as I now know films can't be entirely trusted untill the bug has been fixed.

Btw, is there any chance of the "debug" of the film you are using to be released with the film viewer or is this Debug made for the rest of the game aswell?

Would be kind of nice to be able to see where we hit and with what and how many times.

I think it would also helps alot against whining and other conspiracy theories.

Captain Virgil Hilts · « **Reply #40 on:** December 13, 2005, 06:19:55 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
interesting! I always thought that the powder simply burned from the source, and while it was burning the gasses started expanding, and that in theory it never mattered if the powder was packed or on its side. I always thought if the powder was loose and burned it would still shoot the bullet down the barrel.

Why, then, do they shake cartridges to mix the powder back up? Is that for something different?

Having what is termed a low density load in a cartridge makes for an inconsistent and sometimes dangerous weapon. For example, it is common to use very small or light charges in certain types of cartridges for use in competition. These light loads allow the powder to lay in the bottom of the brass case, AWAY from the primer and flash hole. You get very inconsistent ignition that way. Pressure can vary as much as 20,000 psi. Most often, dacron fiber or something of that ilk is used as a filler to keep the powder tightly packed at the back of the case directly over the flash hole in front of the primer.

Charge · « **Reply #41 on:** December 14, 2005, 04:50:03 AM »

"The Semi-Armour Piercing HEI 20mm hispano had a far greater impact on armour than did any of the 20mm projectiles produced by the germans."

The German AP was inferior due to less projectile weight and MV. Surprising? Hardly.
However, the 20mm Minengeschoss was designed to blow a wing off. Hold on to your shining armoured set as it plummets towards earth.

BTW AP is not much good close range as it is likely to overpenetrate and doing so it releases only a fraction of its energy on target. I'd rather use HE.

-C+

PS. Which gun packs more punch on target in 800 yards 1sec burst? Hisso or 151/20? Presume all projectiles hit.

Mugzeee · « **Reply #42 on:** December 14, 2005, 06:28:38 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by hitech
Wilbus: I hadn't noticed that before, looked into it and it is a bug with the film view. Basicly your hitsare recorded in the film, but the bullets being launched in the film are also striking the plane and creating more flashes.

HiTech

EUREEKA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You think we see the same visual cues in the MA in real time? I suspect we do. After multiple flights and film reviews.

Kweassa · « **Reply #43 on:** December 14, 2005, 06:41:57 AM »

Quote

Wilbus: I hadn't noticed that before, looked into it and it is a bug with the film view. Basicly your hitsare recorded in the film, but the bullets being launched in the film are also striking the plane and creating more flashes.

HiTech

Interesting.

This means the film viewer is a doubtful source for analyzing just exactly what happens in engagements, since what you're seeing in the film viewer in regards to bullet hits and strike effects, are inconsistent to what really happens during the actual event.

It provides a hunk of explanations for some of the older discussions such as people claiming multiple 30mm shots do not harm planes - ie) they missed the shot during the actual event, but the film recording of that event may show as multiple 30mms being hit.

Charge · « **Reply #44 on:** December 14, 2005, 07:06:54 AM »

So is it that to cause damage eg. on wing the 20mms have to hit the area several times in certain "time window" to cause catastrophic damage?

I mean that lobbing a 20mm hit every now and then does not accumulate on that part. Or does it? That would mean that if there is accumulated damage already on the wing it could be cut of even with a few MG rounds?

-C+

PS. "but the film recording of that event may show as multiple 30mms being hit."

One is enough if it works as it is supposed to.