Author Topic: The Plan: We Win!  (Read 471 times)

Offline Sakai

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The Plan: We Win!
« on: December 01, 2005, 02:19:59 PM »
This sums it up--standing around saying "we good, we win" is neither a plan nor leadership, it's pedantry and demagoguery.  It's why we won't win with a strategy as pathetic as W's, as badly as we need to win.

Plan: We Win

We've seen it before: an embattled president so swathed in his inner circle that he completely loses touch with the public and wanders around among small knots of people who agree with him. There was Lyndon Johnson in the 1960's, Richard Nixon in the 1970's, and George H. W. Bush in the 1990's. Now it's his son's turn.

It has been obvious for months that Americans don't believe the war is going just fine, and they needed to hear that President Bush gets that. They wanted to see that he had learned from his mistakes and adjusted his course, and that he had a measurable and realistic plan for making Iraq safe enough to withdraw United States troops. Americans didn't need to be convinced of Mr. Bush's commitment to his idealized version of the war. They needed to be reassured that he recognized the reality of the war.

Instead, Mr. Bush traveled 32 miles from the White House to the Naval Academy and spoke to yet another of the well-behaved, uniformed audiences that have screened him from the rest of America lately. If you do not happen to be a midshipman, you'd have to have been watching cable news at midmorning on a weekday to catch him.

The address was accompanied by a voluminous handout entitled "National Strategy for Victory in Iraq," which the White House grandly calls the newly declassified version of the plan that has been driving the war. If there was something secret about that plan, we can't figure out what it was. The document, and Mr. Bush's speech, were almost entirely a rehash of the same tired argument that everything's going just fine. Mr. Bush also offered the usual false choice between sticking to his policy and beating a hasty and cowardly retreat.

On the critical question of the progress of the Iraqi military, the president was particularly optimistic, and misleading. He said, for instance, that Iraqi security forces control major areas, including the northern and southern provinces and cities like Najaf. That's true if you believe a nation can be built out of a change of clothing: these forces are based on party and sectarian militias that have controlled many of these same areas since the fall of Saddam Hussein but now wear Iraqi Army uniforms. In other regions, the most powerful Iraqi security forces are rogue militias that refuse to disarm and have on occasion turned their guns against American troops, like Moktada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army.

Mr. Bush's vision of the next big step is equally troubling: training Iraqi forces well enough to free American forces for more of the bloody and ineffective search-and-destroy sweeps that accomplish little beyond alienating the populace.

What Americans wanted to hear was a genuine counterinsurgency plan, perhaps like one proposed by Andrew F. Krepinevich Jr., a leading writer on military strategy: find the most secure areas with capable Iraqi forces. Embed American trainers with those forces and make the region safe enough to spend money on reconstruction, thus making friends and draining the insurgency. Then slowly expand those zones and withdraw American forces.

Americans have been clamoring for believable goals in Iraq, but Mr. Bush stuck to his notion of staying until "total victory." His strategy document defines that as an Iraq that "has defeated the terrorists and neutralized the insurgency"; is "peaceful, united, stable, democratic and secure"; and is a partner in the war on terror, an integral part of the international community, and "an engine for regional economic growth and proving the fruits of democratic governance to the region."

That may be the most grandiose set of ambitions for the region since the vision of Nebuchadnezzar's son Belshazzar, who saw the hand writing on the wall. Mr. Bush hates comparisons between Vietnam and Iraq. But after watching the president, we couldn't resist reading Richard Nixon's 1969 Vietnamization speech. Substitute the Iraqi constitutional process for the Paris peace talks, and Mr. Bush's ideas about the Iraqi Army are not much different from Nixon's plans - except Nixon admitted the war was going very badly (which was easier for him to do because he didn't start it), and he was very clear about the risks and huge sacrifices ahead.

A president who seems less in touch with reality than Richard Nixon needs to get out more.
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Offline john9001

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The Plan: We Win!
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2005, 02:26:42 PM »
so, whats your "plan"?

Offline Sandman

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The Plan: We Win!
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2005, 03:36:32 PM »
I'm planning on not voting for any incumbents.

That's my plan.

;)
sand

Offline Silat

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The Plan: We Win!
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2005, 04:10:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
so, whats your "plan"?


Knowing and pointing out that something is wrong doesnt mean you must have a plan. If you havent noticed this bunch of leaders doesnt listen to anyone who doesnt march in lockstep with them.

It is our duty as Americans to point out the mistakes and misrepresentations of our current leaders and to question them.
Or are you saying that even if the pres is wrong we shouldnt criticise him as we dont have a plan?

And by the way you can google as well as I. The dems have always had a plan... http://www.democrats.org/agenda.html
The Reps just choose to ignore them as they dont have power..
+Silat
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Offline bj229r

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The Plan: We Win!
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2005, 05:00:30 PM »
Everyone seems to think we are losing, except for the guys over there
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers

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Offline Red Tail 444

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The Plan: We Win!
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2005, 05:23:14 PM »
In Vietnam, we won almost all the battles over there, too...

Offline CAV

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The Plan: We Win!
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2005, 06:29:01 PM »
Plan: We Win

If that is the plan I am all for it.....

After all.... to fight till we win is the same plan the U.S. had in WW2. It worked then, why is that a "bad" plan now?

CAVALRY
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Offline NUKE

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The Plan: We Win!
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2005, 06:47:38 PM »
It's simple: We stay and get the job done, and we win. The job is getting done, so we are winning.

What's the problem again?

Offline Bluedog

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The Plan: We Win!
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2005, 10:45:14 PM »
Couple of thousand dead sons/husbands/fathers with every possability of plenty more?
Thats one problem.

One dead soldier is one too many, it isnt a reason to give up, pack up and go home, but it IS a reason to modify or adjust your planning, both short term and long term.

If the people at home in the countries that make up the 'Coalition of the willing' grow tired of the deaths of their sons before the people of Iraq and neighbouring regions grow tired of sending their sons to paradise in a fight against the infidel, we then have another problem.

I dont claim to have a solution for either, or for that matter a plan to prevent such problems, but I can understand why folks might want to know what GW Bush's plan is, and the solutions he has in store.

Im all for kicking the living **** out of the radical extremist muslim terrorists/militia/armies over there, but doing so at it's current cost in lives could prove to be untenable in the long term, and long term is what its all about isnt it?

Offline deSelys

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The Plan: We Win!
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2005, 04:47:41 AM »
You guys should have voted for Kerry b/c he already had 'a plan' in 2004...

My X-mas wish for the US is that somebody will dig up an obscure amendment in the Constitution which allows to dismiss GWB from the White House and force Powell to take the job.
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Offline SMIDSY

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The Plan: We Win!
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2005, 06:07:04 AM »
"one dead soldier is too many."
soldiers die so civilians dont have to. simple as that. all you have to do is commit seriously to public works projects and the people will respect us (fingers crossed).

also,
you cannot compare our current situation with WWII. they are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WARS. you cant win insurgency wars just by killing.

Offline DREDIOCK

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The Plan: We Win!
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2005, 07:20:01 AM »
Rule #1 in war

You never make your plans public knowledge
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline SMIDSY

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The Plan: We Win!
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2005, 08:06:15 AM »
exactly. just like you dont make it known to everyone when you are leaving. but at least the iraqi government should know that last one.

Offline lazs2

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The Plan: We Win!
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2005, 08:12:23 AM »
In vietnam we won all the battles and we won complete control of the south... we pulled out and abondened the "plan" (promise) to support the south and they lost the war we had won for them.   We won but the south lost.

We have won in Iraq... there are no enemy held positions.   we need to help them clear out terrorists for a while and then support their military and police when we pull out after they are sufficiently trained.

sandie... by not voting for any incumbent... you really mean... not voting for any incumbent except the liberal ones.

lazs

Offline Sakai

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The Plan: We Win!
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2005, 08:21:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
so, whats your "plan"?


As mentioned elsewhere, set goals, meet them and turn the place over.  Bush's goals are 1) nebulous and indistinct allowing them to be interpreted too widely depending on the viewpoint so if we say "we won!" the enemy and the world could well say "you lost!" 2) Not feasible.  We don't have the number of men or the political will power to stay in that place and fight for 100 years.  It is not possible to achieve complete military victory.  

The GOP senate said the same.  It isn't "liberals wanting to bail" it's Americans acknowledging the reality of the situation.  Bush is out of touch, that doesn't mean we have to flush our troops down the drain with his ego.  

I know guys hate to say "OK, I voted for him and I was wrong."  It's tough, but we can't waste our military like this again.  

Sakai
« Last Edit: December 02, 2005, 08:29:04 AM by Sakai »
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