Author Topic: The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.  (Read 1757 times)

Offline Hangtime

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« on: December 01, 2005, 08:22:37 PM »
Ok.. got Boston's Gun Bible. A big piece of this outstanding refrence work is an in depth comparison of modern battlefield rifles. In it he discusses the relative merits of various modern army ammo calibers and the conclusion is the Nato 7.62x51 (.308 Winchester) is the caliber to 'beat'. Reach, power, penetration.. it's got it all over the 5.56 round now in favor with modern armies. Down tick.. weight, mass, amount that can be carried.

In recent months I've been steadily 'arming' the family. The kids all have their own SKS's & M39's now and we've gone through just under 5,000 rounds on the range.. they have developed pretty comendable rifle skills, and understand fully the capabilities of the weapons. Stage One is about complete. Since we're in an 'urban' enviornment here, the thinking has been the SKS's with their 7.62x39 round at close quarters (200 yards and under) is adequite to the task. But should things get ugly in an urban situation the task switches from 'defense' to 'bug out'. Now, just like a hand gun is valid to fight your way to your rifle, the SKS is valid for fighting your way out of an urban enviornment and into a rural one. Cheap, light, rugged and very compact, it's more accurate than an AK and has more punch than the M-16 clones. Perfect 'trunk guns', and the kids know how to use 'em well.

But once you get 'in the clear' the .308 semi-auto battle rifle comes into it's own. With a much better reach and harder hit than the .223, as one guy put it "It's awfuly hard to hide from a .308". If your facing folks equipped with .223's you want something that can engage effectively thru battlefield cover before they can. I have several 7.62x54 bolt action battle rifles, these have the range and power of the .308 but it takes 3 of them in constant action to lay down the amount of aimed fire a singe semi-auto .308 battle rifle can.

Now off to the available choices for a .308 semi-auto rifle.. in the Gun Bible he reviews 5 of them in detail..

The M1 Garand in 30-06
The M1A (M-14) in .308
The FAL in .308
The HK 91 in .308
The AR-10 in .308

Now, I was pre-disposed to the M1A (M-14) since I'm real familiar with the rifle and it's capabilities. A superb weapon. Very accurate, very reliable. The 20 round mag and the relatively cheap and available ammo make it The Bible's top pick... by a very few percentage points. Coming in a few points behind these two is the FAL with the HK 91 a few percentage points behind it.. and dead last the AR-10.

I plowed through the pages & pages of discussion, the comparisons based on accuracy, controls, ruggedness, reliability, serviceability, parts counts, cost.. the guy was meticulious and detailed in his evaluations. As I probably mentioned somewhere else.. The Gun Bible is an excellent refrence work on modern battlefield carbines and rifles. It's earned it's price back 10 fold or more already..

Finally, I came to a decison based on my own circumstances and needs and feel I've made a good choice. My biggest up front requirement falls right in line with one of the Bibles Maxixms.. "Get as much Rifle as you can afford." Based on up front and on-going shooting (and training) cost as being MY biggest factor, accuracy and reliability being the next two major considerations, I chose the FAL.. to be exact the STG-58C. The STG, 750 bucks; new. The M1A.. $1250, new.. for a crappy springfield regurge at that. The FAL 20 round mags.. 7 bucks. The M1A's.. 35 to 40 bucks. The M1A is more accurate.. the 'stock' FAL not so much but this is easily addressed by the owner with inexpensive upgrade sights. Reliability.. belive it or not the FAL is just about the most reliable of the bunch... and can be improved with a simple forward bolt assist mod.

Now.. I've got an M1 Garand in the works.. no finer battle rifle on the target range is available. It's accuracy is beyond reproach.. but the 8 round clip and increasing scaricty of ammo will relegate it to the status of being a much enjoyed piece of history.. much the same as my old bolt guns, exceptionaly accurate but outclassed in volume of fire and battlefield practicality by it's younger cousins the M-14 and the FAL. I'll have fun 'building' my CMP M1 this winter.. but there will be a ready to go FAL in the closet in the meantime.

Lastly, the HK 91 (and it's clones) just fall flat on their face when it comes to accuracy.. the sights suck, plain and simple. With optics, they are decent performers; but are about as accurate as an SKS over 200 yards on the battlefield sights. The HK 91 got top honors for reliability.. but they just look ugly to me.. all those stamped parts. ungh. I'm pre-disposed to disliking the HK.. it's just me, I'm sure. The bible speaks highly of it.. untill accuracy comes into play.

Parting coment.. the FAL was used by 90 countries.. the Bible makes the point: 'when have 90 countries ever agreed on anything?' ;)  Inexpensive replacement parts abound. Since the Import ban on assault weapons impacted the availability here in the US for 'genuine' FALs, several US firms have been producing FAL receivers for use with 'kits'..  a 'kit' is a stripped surplus used FAL less receiver, commonly available for less than 300 bucks. The two better companies here in the US building American 'FrankenFALs' are Imbel and Enterprise Arms. Average price for a 'Parts Gun' is about $750.. I got mine for $500 used, in astounding condition, all new USA barrel, milled receiver & composite furniture, belgian parts throughout the rest of rifle. A competely legal 'American FAL', for about half the cost of a Springfield M1A in similar condition... new cast reciever with various surplus USGI and aftermarket parts.

Look at it this way.. two FALs for the price of one M1A... Would I rather have an M1A? yah. But I'd rather have two FAL's in the family than one M1A.  ;)

Sorry Laz.. my wallet thickness exceeded the bone density of my head on this one. Of course I'll snap up any worthy M1A that crosses my aquistion capabilities.. but the first .308 battle rifle into the inventory here is a FrankenFal. ;)

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Offline Vulcan

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2005, 08:39:14 PM »
Used to play with the FN SLR's (older version of the FAL I believe) when I was in the "cadet corp", they were handed down to us when the NZ Army switched to M-16's - loved em, and many of the Army regular guys still prefered them over the M-16s as well. When they retired them they did some silly stuff with them, like hooking up home made mags and firing them til they got the barrels glowing hot :)

Offline Wolf14

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2005, 08:47:40 PM »
I'm an all around HK fan. I have shot 3 different and well taken care of HK 91's. I have also shot 2 HK 91 kits. I have also shot a few FALs as well and have found in my opinion, and of course it is a little biased, the full fledged HK 91's shot better than the FALs but the kit HK91's shot like crap.

I'm thinking on the kit guns that the barrels arent all in that great of shape.  As far as money goes though I cant afford a true HK91. It just aint gonna happen anytime soon for me, but I will definately go with a FAL before going with a kit HK 91.

The only thing I really like about the kit HK's is alot of them have the scope rail molded in the reciever as opposed to the claw type clamp used on the real HK's.

Of course the G3/HK91 is really a liscensed copy of a CETME.

Offline lasersailor184

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2005, 08:54:45 PM »
Unfortunately, I wish you had conferred with us before you made your decision.

While those are all decent rifles (even the AR-10), they just cannot compare to the M1A/M14.

So while you might be spending 750 dollars, I'd say it's way more worth it to save up for the M1a/M14.  



I'm curious as to where you live.  Because in my area, .30-06 rounds damn near grow on trees.  And cost like they do grow on trees.
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Offline Wolf14

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2005, 09:03:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
I'm curious as to where you live.  Because in my area, .30-06 rounds damn near grow on trees.  And cost like they do grow on trees. [/B]


Good point,

One thing my dad told me along time ago that makes alot of sense......."if you are worried about the world going to hell in a hand basket. Make sure your rifle/ pistol rounds can be found in the local good old boys country stores"

Pretty much limits rounds to:

.30-.30
.30-06
.45
.308

So most guns I'll end up having on hand will have those rounds.

Offline lasersailor184

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2005, 09:07:14 PM »
Umm, I live in good ole boy country.  .308 is pretty hard to find (for a decent price).

Here are the rounds you are sure of finding (off the top of my head):

.30-06
.30-30
.45
.22
.38 Spcl / .357 Magnum
12 Guage BuckShot
12 Guage Slugs


Now that I'm thinking about it, those are the exact rounds available at my local Convenience / Deli / Gas Store.
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Offline Hangtime

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2005, 09:10:33 PM »
Ah True. And in truth and in answer to Vulcan.. I had FAL's offered in swap for my M14 "just fer a bit, mate.."  was never tempted to swap. That speaks volumes about how muchy I like the old M14.  And the real Belgain FAL is a very fine wepon compared to any crap 500 dollar clone done of any TRUE worthy battle rifle.

But true 'worthy' battle rifles start at about 15-1800 bucks, and easily go to over 3500 bucks.. without optics. Kinda tuff to compare a prince to pauper like a clone FAL.

And, that's where the Bible lets me down just a bit.. it's ok to rave about 1500 dollar battle rifles.. but where I'm swiming in the tank the only bait I can afford to hit is the stuff on the bottom of the pile.

And down here.. the 750 dollar FAL clone out shoots and out cheaps the HK clones.. I havent handled a CETME clone yet but they reportedly fall pretty short of the FrankenFals in accuracy and useability.

I think its safe to say in the world of 500-800 dollar clone rifles, the Enterpise or Imbel STG-58 is a 'well, at least you got yer nickles worth' of gun.

;)
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Offline Hangtime

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2005, 09:23:10 PM »
.308 147 grain FMJ Surplus. Brass case, berdan primed, non-corrosive $2.95 - 20 rounds
$69.95 - 500 rounds
$135.95 - 1000 rounds

Around here 30-06 goes for about 18 bucks a box of 20 off the shelf, or Cheaper Than Dirt has it for 8 bucks a box of 20. Almost 3 times as pricey as .308 FMJ. The 30-06 surplus stuff is drying up and I'm not planning on getting into reloading yet. ;)
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

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storch

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2005, 09:25:38 PM »
you can get SMLEs chambered in .308

Offline Hangtime

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2005, 09:35:54 PM »
Yup.. the indian NATO smellies are nice. But I'm not lookin for another bolt gun. The ones I've got have served thier purpose.. fine training rifles. I'm gonna scope up one of the M39's and sell the other two.. and buy another FrankenFal for the kids. Then, after we've got three good FALS we'll sart sellin 'em off for M-1A's.

The FALs won't be dropping in value and we can afford 'em now. When I get more money I'll trade up. Gotta start with what I can afford now though.. 'waiting' ain't much of an option and the new weapons familiarization for the kids is a good thing.. keeps interest up and it's fun playing withe new toys. ;)
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Offline Maverick

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2005, 09:37:19 PM »
Given the popularity of .308 vs 30-06 I'd go with the .308 as well.

Your choice of rifles is interesting. The scenario you talk about is somewhat flawed however. If you stick with a scoped bolt action rifle you will have far more reach than iron sights. One shot that hits is FAR more valuable than 25 that miss. The idea of long range capability is to use that capability AT long range. A single shot is harder to determine where it came from than a flurry of shots or even just 2 or 3. You will dissuade more folks looking for you if you hit once with one shot and only needing one shot. This gives you the oportunity to do what should be first on your mind, dissengaging contact, not maintaining it.

Best strategy is to avoid trouble, not go looking for it.
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Offline Dago

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2005, 09:42:04 PM »
I have an M1A and I love it.  New USGI magazines can be had for $25 from Armalite and Elite Firearms.  Taiwan T57 magazines are going for as low as $10 now and are excellant shooters.  

High Quality surplus ammo is available from many places, my favorite is http://www.polygunbag.com/ammunition.html

Aimsurplus is also selling .308 surplus, and currently about the best available surplus in quantity is South African ammo.   http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/copy_of__308.html

If you want a really good M1A, watch auctionarms.com and gunbroker.com for a good Preban M1A.  Those were still built with USGI surplus parts and are of excellant quality.  Expect to pay $1200 - $1400, but money well spent.

I personally wouldnt go for the new M1A, a lot of reproduction parts, but many have them and like them.

M1A is famous for accuracy and reliability.  The military has been shipping M14s to Iraq and they are serving with distinction again.  (Those that Clinton didnt have destroyed anyway)

Good places to do some research:

http://battlerifles.ambackforum.com/viewforum.php?f=108&sid=e869bcf79b586eee2ccc92e3bef1d9f7

http://www.warrifles.com/forums/index.php

http://www.m-14forum.com/


Good luck with whatever you choose.

dago
« Last Edit: December 01, 2005, 09:44:24 PM by Dago »
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Offline Hangtime

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2005, 09:48:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
Given the popularity of .308 vs 30-06 I'd go with the .308 as well.

Your choice of rifles is interesting. The scenario you talk about is somewhat flawed however. If you stick with a scoped bolt action rifle you will have far more reach than iron sights. One shot that hits is FAR more valuable than 25 that miss. The idea of long range capability is to use that capability AT long range. A single shot is harder to determine where it came from than a flurry of shots or even just 2 or 3. You will dissuade more folks looking for you if you hit once with one shot and only needing one shot. This gives you the oportunity to do what should be first on your mind, dissengaging contact, not maintaining it.

Best strategy is to avoid trouble, not go looking for it.


Agree.. and I'm scoping up a worthy bolt rifle for just that reason. And accuracy and aimed fire is the gospel of a rifleman trained on a bolt gun.. no matter what he has in hands after that. However in crunch the best force multiplier is an accurate semi-auto battle rifle... 20 in a mag vs 5 under a bolt can save your bellybutton when it comes time to get outta dodge.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2005, 09:51:00 PM by Hangtime »
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Offline nirvana

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2005, 09:55:28 PM »
You aren't forming your own Militia, are you Hang?  I'm the only one in my house with a "gun" and it's only a .177 cal Daisy BB gun.  My dad has a .22 but that's beside the point.  Are you paranoid or planning a resistance movement?
Who are you to wave your finger?

Offline Hangtime

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2005, 10:12:12 PM »
You bet I am... pretty soon I'm gonna need to schedule a bus for range days.

"I'm not paranoid.. which one of my enemies told you this?"

;)
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.