Author Topic: The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.  (Read 1796 times)

Offline -tronski-

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2005, 12:21:46 AM »
L1A1, but it gets heavy...

 Tronsky
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Offline deSelys

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2005, 04:58:51 AM »
Ah... Belgium not only makes fine chocolates.

Hang, if you ever stumble upon the SAFN, don't pass it: ancestor of the FAL, same action mechanism, some say that it shoots better (I thinks that it has better stock sights), and much better looking ;)



Have safe fun with your rifles.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2005, 05:01:53 AM by deSelys »
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Offline Dago

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2005, 07:00:25 AM »
Scope a quality M1A and you will have a rifle that does everything you want.

M1As are often setup as sub-moa rifles, and 1000yd competitions are routinly shot with M1As (and won).  

Kills at 300 and 600 yards present no problem.

dago
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Offline Eden

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2005, 07:42:34 AM »
Hey all,  
Great thread (I'm learning a heck of a lot).

Here's my two cents:

If the topic is survival scenario (i.e. world goes to he**) then a general pupose rifle with the capabilities to engage hostile foe plus the ability to take down game is a must.  To find a rifle with both capabilities is tough (and some sacrificies have to be made).  Bolt actions have the benefit of accuracy but semi's have the magazine capacity and rate of fire advantage.  I would say that the first choice would have to be caliber.  I lean towards .308 due to the wider availability than 30-06 in both military ball and hunting ammo (soft points, holllow points etc).  There is just more .308 to be had (if the world is in chaos then price ..i.e. money is no longer a concer...just whether or not it can be obtained).

Now for the rifle, I cannot prove any one to be the best (again there are trade offs) but I lean towards the Semi's (trade some accuracy for more bullets and faster rate of fire).  Right now here is what I own in .308 (I only own two .308 rifles...this one plus an Ishapore Enfield)





The Mas 49/56.  I picked up for about $500 (this is about the limit of my bugdet).  I am prepared for the rotten eggs to be thrown at my door for chosing a french rifle (I am prepared with the hose that is - lets not get crazy!).
:)

It is accurate with the iron sights to about 300 yards and with the scope (and after-market mount and scope) I can shoot 3" groups out to about 600 yards.  Good enough for most "situations".
It is fairly light (9 lbs of 4.10KG) and short (40" or 1020 mm which is pretty handy).  It has a 20" (525mm) barrel and uses a simple direct gas blowback system (with no piston which was used and admired by Stoner).  Easy to clean and maintain and has fired 100's of rounds as a session without issue.

The down side is a small magazine (relatively) at only 10 rounds (I actually prefer not to have a big metal box hanging out of the bottom of the rifle...one less thing I have to fight with).  Also, getting parts could be more difficult then a more common rifle but the weapon is sturdy to fire and hold and I've put aside some of the more common parts that fail (firing pin, extractor, springs etc).  I haven't had anything break so far (shot around 2000 rounds through it)  Anyway, a cheap alternative for those on a budget and my two cents.

Offline Eden

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2005, 07:48:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by deSelys
Ah... Belgium not only makes fine chocolates.

Hang, if you ever stumble upon the SAFN, don't pass it: ancestor of the FAL, same action mechanism, some say that it shoots better (I thinks that it has better stock sights), and much better looking ;)



Have safe fun with your rifles.


deSeyls,

I own one of these and love it.  What a solid, accurate piece of art.  SOme draw backs are that it is complicated to take apart, is in 8mm (and some other calibers such as 7mm but much more limited) and has a non-detachable magazine.  I have heard that there are some that were modified for 30-06 (or .308) with a detachable magazine.  Haven't seen or heard much on them though.  If all else fails you could use it as a tremendous club! ;)

Offline lazs2

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2005, 08:06:56 AM »
I don't think any of you are wrong.   .308 will probly be a little more available than ought six but not enough to matter... You can buy surplus ought six still for around 20 cents a round and you can reload either 308 or ought six for about the same money... if you have reloading skills and can find .308 or ought six.... you can make one into the other (if you have the brass) in an emergency.   Imr 4198 can be loaded in an emergency by simply filling the case to the neck... close enough for an M1... fn's adjust.

I happen to have a very mint Garand so... I am getting familiar with it... it is, as you say... very accurate and probly the most battle proven of the bunch... it also is a real military weapon with forged parts that won't stretch or fail.   The 8 round clip is not as big a disadvantage as you may think... you don't have to remove the old clip/mag... it removes itself... all you got to do is ram home another one...  the clips weigh nothing and are compact so you can carry a lot of em..

I like it.... I like the M1a and  the hk even tho it destroys brass.. not that fond of the fal... spotty accuracy on the ones I shot...  but..

in the end... any one I pick up will do.. If I don't like it... I will use it to get one I do.

Never hurts to have a breakdown .22 rifle or pistol either tho.

lazs

Offline Hangtime

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2005, 08:17:16 AM »
I turned down a MAS in favor of the FrankenFal.. looked like a nice weapon, but since i had a choice in that price range I went with the STG 58.

Now here's something I agonized over for a solid week.. damn near went this route..



In the same price range as the FrankenFal. A mite bigger.. shoots the cheaper ammo (I've got 5,000 rounds of 7.62x54 for the bolties) and it's a decent design.. based on the Dragunov, but has a 'cheapo' stamped trigger group. Uses the Kalishnikov receiver design (no interchangeable parts tho) and good optics come on the gun at the same price as the FAL without optics.

I elected to pass because of the 10 round mags, the probable dry-up of commie ammo (reloadble 7.62x54 is gonna be even rarer) and the fact it's just too distinctive as an 'evil sniper rifle'. Anybody carrying one would receive unwanted attention of the entirely wrong kind. Lastly, it's design focus IS as a Sniper Rifle.. something my boltie M39's can do for 1/5 the cost.

Still, an interesting weapon, and at about $650-750 new outta the box with optics it's price is attractive. But it's not what I want my kids totin around.. would make 'em 'remembered' and an instant target.
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Offline lazs2

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2005, 08:37:13 AM »
Like I said... none of you is wrong unless yu pick a rifle that you can't shoot or maintain well.

I think an essential skill is a basic working knowlege of reloading.

lazs

Offline Eden

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2005, 08:55:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Like I said... none of you is wrong unless yu pick a rifle that you can't shoot or maintain well.

I think an essential skill is a basic working knowlege of reloading.

lazs


Ironically enough the only reloading dies I have are for this rifle.  



They came with the rifle.  I fired it once then shelved this "widowmaker".  Someday I'll get into reloading for real.  Sounds like an art form all its own.

Offline lazs2

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2005, 09:07:40 AM »
You don't even need dies.   I can reload with common hand tools... for instance... a die can be made by drilling a piece of plate steel ... a punch is a punch.. etc.   I have punched out live primers and reused em as a test.

I still believe that a working knowlege of reloading is pretty much essential in a doomsday scenario...

and... nothing wrong with your pick of battle rifle.

What is optimum?  who knows..  I will stick with...

The optimum battle rifle is a full power rifle that you can shoot and maintain well.

lazs

Offline Hangtime

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2005, 09:56:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eden
Ironically enough the only reloading dies I have are for this rifle.  



They came with the rifle.  I fired it once then shelved this "widowmaker".  Someday I'll get into reloading for real.  Sounds like an art form all its own.


The Lee Loaders? Handy.. absolutely. And it's experience/skill crucial for the .303 enfields with the ammo being so damn pricey and hard to find. And Laz is 100% correct; reloading skill is critical in a doomsday scenario. Dammit I hope that any 'trouble' is short lived 'cause once my 'off the shelf' stuff runs out I'm up the creek. I've been stocking up reasoning that ammo will be worth more than money in either a short term OR long term period of disarray..

Problem here is this is suburbia.. trapped behind 5 bridges. In a bug out, the equipment wouldn't make it. As soon as I relocate to a more rural location (working on that too) then I'm going with a 5 position turrent setup. I mean.. why mess around? :)
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Reschke

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Re: The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2005, 11:20:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
Now.. I've got an M1 Garand in the works.. no finer battle rifle on the target range is available. It's accuracy is beyond reproach.. but the 8 round clip and increasing scaricty of ammo will relegate it to the status of being a much enjoyed piece of history..


.30-06 ammo scarce???? Where the hell do you live? I can get all you want at the local sporting goods stores around my house. Just send me a couple hundred dollars to load you up and I will ship it to you for free. Its cheaper than $20 a box here. I paid about $10 a box for a case of .30-06 ammo last spring at Academy Sports here in Birmingham. That was my favorite Federal 150 grain round. I have dropped more deer at over 200 yards with my Model 700 long action .30-06 than any other rifle. The only other I shoot is my Dad's modified Ruger M77 .270 with a chopped barrel and its an absolute dream gun for stalk hunting in the woods around here.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2005, 11:26:55 AM by Reschke »
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Offline StarOfAfrica2

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Re: Re: The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2005, 12:41:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Reschke
.30-06 ammo scarce???? Where the hell do you live? I can get all you want at the local sporting goods stores around my house. Just send me a couple hundred dollars to load you up and I will ship it to you for free. Its cheaper than $20 a box here. I paid about $10 a box for a case of .30-06 ammo last spring at Academy Sports here in Birmingham. That was my favorite Federal 150 grain round. I have dropped more deer at over 200 yards with my Model 700 long action .30-06 than any other rifle. The only other I shoot is my Dad's modified Ruger M77 .270 with a chopped barrel and its an absolute dream gun for stalk hunting in the woods around here.


That was the point of the "good ole boy ammo" quote above, I belive.  Price isnt your prime concern in this situation, its availability.  If the poop hits the big fan, and you are concerned over your ammo supply, you need to be shooting something that will take what you can get off the shelf at the local Wal-Mart or whatever.  You may not be lucky enough to have a real gun store close by, that stocks all kinds of ammo.  Even if you do, you may not be able to get in.  Wal-Mart or the equivalent you usually have big glass doors you could drive a truck through if necessary.

Also, as Lazs pointed out, the ability to reload ammo is unbeliveably important in such a situation.  Especially if you choose the .308 stuff and cant get it anywhere close by.  You may be able to buy the bullets cheap enough now, but how many will you store?  1000?  5000?  You can buy and store brass even cheaper, and load it as you need.  Plus having the benefit of having whatever bullet weight you prefer right off the bat, not having to settle for what you can scrounge.  Now that I'm loading my own stuff, even just on a single stage press, I'm amazed at how much ammo I can churn out just while I'm sitting doing other things.  Having one of the little Lee Hand Loaders is even better if you think you might have to go on the dodge and cant stay at the house.  No mounting required.  Perfect hand depriming tools?  Those 6in wooden sticks I see at the craft store with the 3in needles on the end?  No idea what they are for, but I grabbed some for my "toolkit" becasue that was the first thing that popped into my head.  

The M39 with a scope is, I agree, probably the best compromise sniper gun you can get for your money.  The ammo is powerful enough, has good range, and you can still find reloadable ammo for reasonable cost.  I love mine.  For closer range I have my .30-30 lever rifle.  Its reliable, accurate out to at least 100 yards, and still powerful enough at that range to take down a deer so its good enough for me as a mid-range defensive weapon.  I also have the matching lever action in .45LC and my revolvers for close range.  The .45 rifle is accurate at 100 yards also, although I cant vouch for the velocity of the bullet at that range.  Ballpark muzzle velocity is around 1100 fps so I'm guessing that even out that far it would put the hurt on a person.

Lastly, in case everything goes to heck, I can cast my own lead balls, and I have a decent supply of powder and percussion caps, I could always rely on my muzzleloaders for defense.  They did the job 150 years ago, they could do it now.

Offline lazs2

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2005, 02:20:46 PM »
ya know... I've been thinking of the lever action marlin 1895 trapper in stainless steel and 45-70 caliber...  I can make excellent slugs from cast wheel weights and scrap lead...  pick a powder that fills the case and it takes large rifle primers....  a good doomsday gun...

most people don't realize that it will also outpentrate .308 against say.... bulletproof glass...  the old gun will do 500 yards real easy and the lever is dead reliable.

Best excuse I've had in a long time to get a new gun.

lazs

Offline Eden

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The .308 Battle Rifle, Why and Which One.
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2005, 02:28:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
ya know... I've been thinking of the lever action marlin 1895 trapper in stainless steel and 45-70 caliber...  I can make excellent slugs from cast wheel weights and scrap lead...  pick a powder that fills the case and it takes large rifle primers....  a good doomsday gun...

most people don't realize that it will also outpentrate .308 against say.... bulletproof glass...  the old gun will do 500 yards real easy and the lever is dead reliable.

Best excuse I've had in a long time to get a new gun.

lazs


That actually reminds me...

Any recommendations on a .44 magnum lever action?  In know that Henry and Marlin makes them (browning, rossi and Winchester also make them - I think).  Just wanted to get something in a caliber that matches my S&W M#29.