Author Topic: Myth or fact > F8F  (Read 14355 times)

Offline ShortyDoowap

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Myth or fact > F8F
« Reply #285 on: December 22, 2005, 09:15:11 PM »
Another interesting read from the same issue:


Offline F4UDOA

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Myth or fact > F8F
« Reply #286 on: December 22, 2005, 09:55:33 PM »
That is a very interesting artical and I think it pretty much puts to bed the origins of the F8F. I was not aware that the F8F ever deployed with the break away wing tips, I thought they scapped that before production. In any event they were removed and the limit was then 7.5 G's.

However,

The FW190 was also flown by Naval combat pilots not just Grumman test pilots. One of those test pilots also has an artical in the Luftwaffa Special addition of Flight Journal (Corkey Meyer also writes for them). His name is Rear Admiral Andy Andrews (Sounds impressive) who happened to be a pilot at Pax River that flew the 190/F6F/F4U test.

In his words the FW190 was not a "Fighter" it was an interceptor based on it's abrupt stall (easy recovery) and extremely high stall speeds and short range. In fact he mentions that the landing speed was twice as high as what he was used to flying. He did comment that it's high speed climb was an advantage.

Granted both articals are the subjective opinions of pilots. But the performance envelope of the 190 (And 109) was always limited by the small wing area and high wing loading. In fact the wing loading and lack of fuel capacity eventually doomed the F8F when the F4U continued service and the AD (Able Dog) began service and remained for so many years. This is supported by the D9 and TA152 designs which could only marginalize the limitations of the Aircraft.

Crummp,

How is the A9 lighter than the A-8? did it carry less fuel or guns? The basic weight of the A5 was 6715LBS and it carried less fuel.

FW190A-9
Empty weight (based on 3050KG)=  6724LBS
Powerloading empty= 3.36
Wing loading= 3.4

F8F-1
Empty Weight= 7077LBS
Power loading= 2.94
WingLoading= 2.9

Both are obviously short range but the 190 seems to be built with the primary focus on downing larger non maneuvering targets based on it's high wing loading.

Based on this what do you think hasn't been modeled in AH?

Offline Crumpp

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Myth or fact > F8F
« Reply #287 on: December 22, 2005, 10:30:05 PM »
Quote
In his words the FW190 was not a "Fighter" it was an interceptor based on it's abrupt stall (easy recovery) and extremely high stall speeds and short range. In fact he mentions that the landing speed was twice as high as what he was used to flying. He did comment that it's high speed climb was an advantage.


I imagine anyone would think that when they flew a Focke Wulf improperly set up.  Not only were the ailerons difficult to keep adjusted with trained Luftwaffe crews but that particular aircraft experienced numerous repairs as it was a recovered crash, including wing damage.  

Properly adjusted ailerons do not reverse at any point in the aircraft low speed envelope.  That is a symptom specifically mentioned in Luftwaffe technical bulletins along with the effect of causing premature stalling in the turns.  Adjustment of the ailerons within specifications cures it.  

Notice it is not mentioned anywhere in the RAE experience either.

As the Luftwaffe documents mention and the FW-190 pilot relate, the ailerons will vibrate gently just before the stall but not reverse.

 

 

That is the reason for the large desparity in "opinion" between the Grumman, RAE, and USN pilots.  It is a fact that Focke Wulf did not design the FW-190 to be an interceptor.  It was designed to be an air superiority fighter.

Quote
6715LBS


That is very close to empty weight for the FW-190A5.

FW-190A5

Leergewich - 2960

Rüstgewicht - 3312Kg

Fluggewicht - 4088Kg Focke Wulf flight testing determines there is no difference in aircraft performance with or without wing armament. All fighters now produced with full wing armament.

Schwerpunktslagen x is .50m bis .73m hinter vorderkante wurzelprofile.


All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: December 22, 2005, 10:32:30 PM by Crumpp »

Offline F4UDOA

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Myth or fact > F8F
« Reply #288 on: December 22, 2005, 10:57:01 PM »
I don't disagree that the Ailerons may have been misaligned. However the stall of the 190 is in line with it's wing loading. The RAE was concerned with the Spitfire for the most part in it's AFDU trials and the 190 had some adavantges for a while against the Spit that it may not have had against the F4U/F6F.

I think the 190 is at a disadvantage in AH because it is faced with an unrealistic mission and only the A/C which can turn and burn and recover e quickly do very well. This is true of most every A/C in AH. The 190 does recover E well but cannot turn well and has a number of non historic advasaries with unusual combinations of performance qualities such as an F6F and a NIK2. I also think that cannon armed A/C have an unrealistic advantage in AH that is somewhat subjective.


BTW,


I really can't decipher the weights you have listed. Are you saying that the empty weight of the A9 is the same as the A5?

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #289 on: December 22, 2005, 11:26:39 PM »
FW-190A5 empty weight = 2960kg's

FW-190 A9 empty weight = 3080 Kg's

That is with the Wide Chord wooden prop.  The power egg is about 30Kg's heavier due to the fact the wooden prop is lighter.

Quote
However the stall of the 190 is in line with it's wing loading.


Depends.  Focke Wulf puts the stall between 155kph to 175kph depending on the CG.

According to the experienced pilots, the FW-190 did give warning.  As the Luftwaffe instructions to their FW-190 pilots relates, the ailerons will vibrate gently before the stall.  

Oscar Boesch says you had to be calm and paying attention to feel it.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline F4UDOA

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Myth or fact > F8F
« Reply #290 on: December 23, 2005, 09:19:18 AM »
Crummp,

Do you have a Pilots Handbook for the 190? The stall speeds at weight with the flap setting as well as power on or off should be there.

Do you have the clmax for the 190?

I have most of my data on my other PC which crashed about a year ago. I am retrieving data very slowly. I have a POH for the 190 and some Cl data as well, it is just a question of digging it out.

The Clmax of most WW2 A/C no power is between approx 1.3 and 1.5

 You can calculate the stall speed within very close proximity just by knowing the weight and wing area.

For instance the number I have for the A5 are a 1G no power stall at 110MPH at 8,8690bs no flaps.

391 Airdensity SL * 8690LBS / 110MPH^2 * 197SQ FT

3397790 / 2383700

Clmax = 1.42

Where the 190 gets into trouble is that even though it has a good clmax it is does not have the wing area to allow it to grow in Engine size or fuel storage without making the stall speed dangerously high especially for ACM.

The Navy requirements force the AC designers to build in a lower stall speed to be able to land on carriers. So even thought the Clmax of the F8F, F6F, F4U are all comprable to the 190 the carry more weight in fuel ammunition and have a longer range while maintaining  lower wing loading.

There is simply no way to overcome the limitations of the airframe which is why the D9 and 152 had increased wing area.

Offline Crumpp

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Myth or fact > F8F
« Reply #291 on: December 23, 2005, 11:47:51 AM »
F4UDOA,

That is nice and all however changing the CG location changes the stall speed and the CLmax.

However it must be pointed out that you did not determine the stall speed either.  You just figured out the CLmax from an assumed stall speed which is actually lower than Focke Wulf says it should be in some documentation.  Now I have many lift polars on the design.  Almost all of them produce varying results.  CL max is condition dependant.

And of course, simple CLmax calculations do not tell the whole story.

Quote
3.3.1.2 MINIMUM USEABLE SPEED
The speed corresponding to CLmax may not be a reasonable limit. Any of the other potential limitations from paragraph 3.3.1 may prescribe a minimum useable speed which is higher than the speed corresponding to CLmax. The higher speed may be appropriate due to high sink rate, undesirable motions, flying qualities, or control effectiveness limits. Influence of the separated flow on the empennage may cause instabilities, loss of control, or intolerable buffeting. Any of these factors could present a practical minimum airspeed limit at a lift coefficient less than the CLmax potential of the airplane. In this case, the classic stall is not reached and a minimum useable speed is defined by another factor.


http://flighttest.navair.navy.mil/unrestricted/FTM108/c3.pdf

Quote
F4UDOA says:
There is simply no way to overcome the limitations of the airframe which is why the D9 and 152 had increased wing area.


The Dora has the same wing as the Anton and the exact same area.  Like the Spitfire or P51 series, it is a good aircraft to study the effects of weight, power, and drag.

Matter of fact the Spitfire Mk IX has the same wing area as the much heavier Spitfire MkXIV:

Quote
The tactical differences are caused chiefly by the fact that the Spitfire XIV has an engine of greater capacity and is the heavier aircraft (weighing 8,400 lbs. against 7,480 lbs. of Spitfire IX).


Quote
The turning circles of both aircraft are identical. The Spitfire XIV appears to turn slightly better to port than it does to starbord.


http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14afdu.html

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: December 23, 2005, 12:15:18 PM by Crumpp »

Offline Crumpp

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Myth or fact > F8F
« Reply #292 on: December 23, 2005, 11:52:55 AM »
Quote
Do you have a Pilots Handbook for the 190?


I would hope we have a Flugzeug-Handbuch laying around!

We have them for the entire series in multiple versions and translations including many original handbuchs of Luftwaffe issue.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Crumpp

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Myth or fact > F8F
« Reply #293 on: December 23, 2005, 12:13:32 PM »
Quote
Where the 190 gets into trouble is that even though it has a good clmax it is does not have the wing area to allow it to grow in Engine size or fuel storage without making the stall speed dangerously high especially for ACM.


D-9, D13, D15, all turned better than the Anton and had the same wing.

BTW, The USAAF puts the 2 G stall speed of the FW-190A5 at 160IAS and 140IAS with "manuvering flaps" as determined in their testing.

Turning and stall speed are very much a function of thrust.  Using the power off stall characteristics does not paint a truthful picture.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline Angus

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Myth or fact > F8F
« Reply #294 on: December 23, 2005, 12:18:35 PM »
Hehe, this one always tickles me:
"I imagine anyone would think that when they flew a Focke Wulf improperly set up. Not only were the ailerons difficult to keep adjusted with trained Luftwaffe crews but that particular aircraft experienced numerous repairs as it was a recovered crash, including wing damage."

Firstly it seems that the Allies never captured an intack LW aircraft be it 109 or 190.
Secondly, there is the question of whether the LW was always able to keep their aircraft in perfect condition, no matter how big the complications were....

Well, you've got to have something to think about over Xmas ;)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Crumpp

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Myth or fact > F8F
« Reply #295 on: December 23, 2005, 01:01:36 PM »
Quote
Firstly it seems that the Allies never captured an intack LW aircraft be it 109 or 190.


It always amazes me the lack of common sense, sense of cultural superiority, and lack of understanding of the importance of maintenance to aircraft performance exibited by those who want to see foreign testing of captured designs as the absolute word in performance of a type.

Angus, you keep popping in this thread making snide comments like I am trying to make the allies out to be idiots.  They were not and niether were their opponents.  Facts are each knew very well what they were doing when it came to aircraft design.  Much more so than anyone on this board.

The "idiots" are are us on these boards who launch out silly theories from some simple calculations disregarding all the facts or basing assumptions on partial information.

They knew what they were doing.  We don't.

Well Angus were where the allies getting their captured aircraft?

Three FW-190's landed by accident in England.  Only one of these exhibit problems with with aileron adjustment.  The other two tested do not.

All of them exhibit engine difficulties due to the use of allied avgas.  However the British were able to compensate somewhat after bench testing one of the captured motors by changing plugs/mixture/timing settings.  They got the motor to run smoothly on the bench.

Unfortunately they never tested it in flight on an aircraft.

The US recieved all of their FW-190's as recovered crashes or abandoned wrecks.  You think they might have had some technical difficulties without a Luftwaffe or Focke Wulf trained mechanic?

Even the governments conducting these trials did not take them as absolute and only make general recommendations based on the conditions experienced.  The detailed technical informatin they include does allow post war analysis of obvious mistakes in detailed maintenance.

You can take opposing technical/operational instructions and compare them with tested aircraft conditions/behaviors.  Especially if these are "quirks" of the design and not common in other designs or common to the testing side.  If specifics are mentioned like:

1.  Focke Wulf aileron adjustment regulations which list specifc adjustment parameters and specific symptoms in flight.

2.  Allied reports which include measurements of those specifics parameters and record specific symptoms.

3.  Condition of the aircraft note specific repairs conducted by personnel not trained on the type.

4.  Allied personnel point out that something appears wrong when compared to other captured aircraft of the same type.

All these are clues.  If it looks like duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.  Chances are it's a duck.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline F4UDOA

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Myth or fact > F8F
« Reply #296 on: December 23, 2005, 08:46:18 PM »
Crummp,

That is a nice document on Clmax. I need to sink into that one. However the great thing about calculating the Clamx from the speeds in the POH is that you are using the aircraft in flight with all of those conditions such as CG, AOA, thrust etc taken into account since the A/C is already flying.

BTW, I am not taking the 110MPH number out of the air randomly, I believe that is the listed stall for power off no flaps for the 190.

Question: What is your expectation of the turn radius of the FW190? Do you believe it should be able to turn inside a P-51D or a P-47D?

My point is that turning ability is very limited regardless of the other factors you mentioned within a very narrow framework. You can improve it marginally with superior power loading but high wingloading is hard to overcome unless you are flying a stunt plane. Combine that with the abrupt stall of the 190 (limited stall warning) and the possibility of the 190 out turning very many WW2 fighters is slim. I believe the stregth of the 190 was hit and run, and use it's high speed climb ability to escape and re-engage.

There are many Engineer types on these boards some of which are Luftwaffa supporters like HoHun and Niklas but I hardly think they would disagree in this regard.

As far as maintenance of the aircraft I would imagine even the Americans could figure out how to test a FW190. This was not being done for sport, they wanted to learn tactics to use against the enemy in combat just as the Luftwaffa did with captured allied aircraft. If there were problems with these 190's it could at least be partially attributed to the fact that they were being built by slave labor that was not exactly thrilled about the task they were being assigned.

Offline Crumpp

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Myth or fact > F8F
« Reply #297 on: December 23, 2005, 10:51:09 PM »
Quote
BTW, I am not taking the 110MPH number out of the air randomly, I believe that is the listed stall for power off no flaps for the 190.


It is from one of the allied test's very few of which are fighter variants.  In fact only the RAE test of Fabers FW-190A3 is a fighter variant and possibly the VVS test.  

However, even the VVS test list's 160kph.  Focke Wulf data says anywhere from 95mph to 110mph depending on the aircraft set up.

 
Quote
Do you believe it should be able to turn inside a P-51D or a P-47D?


Depends on speed, altitude, etc...

At low altitude and at low speed is where the FW-190A5 should turn its best.  It's not a turn fighter by any means but neither is so unmaneuverable that it cannot quickly reverse.

I tend to agree with the USAAF trials on the P47D4.  At altitude above 15,000 feet or speeds above 250 mph the P47D easily wins.  To the point that turns over 250mph the P47D using the high activity propeller and water injection has to throttle back.  Below 250mph the situation is reversed and the FW-190's ability to hang on its prop allows it to easily outturn the P47D.

FW-190A8 vs P47D40 would yield similar results although the P47D40 superiority at speeds above 250mph would not be as apparent if the P47D40 is not getting a substantial power increase over the P47D4 with water injection.  If it does then the results will be the same as the FW-190A5.

If both A/C use "maneuvering" flaps, the P47 will have an advantage with it's slotted flaps and would probably equal the FW-190's turn rate or exceed it for a few seconds.

Similar situation with the Mustang as tested by the USAAF.  Low altitude below 250mph the FW-190A5 should be just barely behind the Mustang.  Above that the Mustang wins.  If both A/C can use "maneuvering" flaps the FW-190's split flaps will win out over the plain flaps of the Mustang.

The FW-190A8 fighter variant should actually turn better than the FW-190A5 as it gains little weight and considerable power over the FW-190A5.  The FW-190A8 should equal the Mustang due to its ability to pull a tighter radius than the FW-190A5.

Above 23000 feet the 801's power falls off and FW-190 performance is not very good.

Quote
You can improve it marginally with superior power loading but high wingloading is hard to overcome unless you are flying a stunt plane.


Does a stunt plane use different physics?  It is not nearly as hard as you think to overcome.  In fact wing loading is not very good for determining turning ability except in the most general of terms.  
 

Increasing thrust reduces radius by allowing a larger angle of bank.  Even though the Spitfire gained 1000lbs, a relatively small power increase was more than able to compensate.  The FW-190 gained as much power and much less weight than the entire series of Spitfires used during the war.  

All the best,

Crumpp
« Last Edit: December 23, 2005, 10:53:36 PM by Crumpp »

Offline Crumpp

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Myth or fact > F8F
« Reply #298 on: December 23, 2005, 11:09:46 PM »
Quote
If there were problems with these 190's it could at least be partially attributed to the fact that they were being built by slave labor that was not exactly thrilled about the task they were being assigned.


Got to call a BS flag on this one F4UDOA.

While sabotage and poor quality control did effect German production it had little effect on the frontline Geschwaders until the system breakdowns in the last months of the war.

Just like the allies, the aircraft were inspected and had to perform during a check out flight before being accepted by the Luftwaffe for service.

Only in terms of supply would this be an issue, not performance.

Now there is one outstanding exception.  Oil formulation appears to have been sabotaged in 1943.  The Luftwaffe lost almost 500 801 motors in one year because one man changed the formula causing the oil to breakdown at high tempatures.  This cause broken rods.  The cause was found, the formula fixed, and the poor guy is listed as "no longer working" in oil production.

Some other instances of "sabotage" did occur.  For example an entire Staffle is listed in one Beanstandungen as being "sabotaged" when they cracked cylinders in two motors in a month.  The Kommandogerät jets were drilled allowing the motor to run at 1.8ata using Erhöhte Notleistung.  In a military service were destruction of state property could carry the death penalty, I would list the mechanics tinkering as "sabotage" too if I was the pilot benefiting.  Focke Wulf and BMW conducted a study and determined the practice was dangerous.  Geschwaders were ordered to cease the modification.

The chances of a sabotaged motor or aircraft reaching the Geschwaders was pretty remote.

All the best,

Crumpp