Author Topic: Myth or fact > F8F  (Read 14356 times)

Offline MiloMorai

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Myth or fact > F8F
« on: December 03, 2005, 04:13:30 PM »
It is said that Bob Hall tested a Fw190A in GB in early 1943 and was so impressed by it that he convinced Roy Grumman to build a small fighter for the F6F replacement fighter competition. Both Boeing and Curtiss were designing huge a/c for the competition.

Fact or truth?

Offline eddiek

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Myth or fact > F8F
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2005, 11:07:26 PM »
Fact....it's been debated and discussed before, probably about three years ago, but yes, it is true in principle.
But......IMHO, to say that the F8F was a direct offshoot, or a Grumman version of the 190 would not be completely true.  He got the idea for the F8F, he didn't copy the 190.  It gave him an idea, an inspiration.
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Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2005, 11:42:15 PM »
LOL, if you think the 190 and the F8F have ANY comparisons besides being Single engine radials you need to just walk away.
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Offline Debonair

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Myth or fact > F8F
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2005, 12:01:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bodhi
LOL, if you think the 190 and the F8F have ANY comparisons besides being Single engine radials you need to just walk away.


thats dumb
both are convetional gear monoplanes

Offline 1K3

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Myth or fact > F8F
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2005, 12:07:36 AM »
Well the F8F has thinner front bars than 190! F8F has better vision overall :)

Offline mauser

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Myth or fact > F8F
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2005, 12:09:47 AM »

Offline 1K3

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Myth or fact > F8F
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2005, 12:19:10 AM »
F8F  vs  FW-190
















Offline Krusty

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« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2005, 12:36:36 AM »
You hold a Ki84 template up to a Fw190 and they look alike as well. You hold a Lavochkin template up and they look the same as well. Not to mention that GRUMMAN had been KNOWN for making radial engined fighters for quite some time by the time the F8F was even envisioned. In fact I think the F8F is a continuation of the F6F blended with some of the shapes of the sleeker F4u.

Offline Jester

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« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2005, 03:45:38 AM »
I always heard it was built to a spec to directly take on the Kamakaze threat to the fleet at that time and what was expected to come from a future invasion of Japan.

It was built light, small airframe, light armament (4 instead of 6 .50 cals as was standard on most Navy & USAAF  fighters) & with major HP (same engine as the Hellcat) to make it as quick as possible so that it could intercept incoming Kamakaze a/c before they could make it to the fleet.

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Offline Squire

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Myth or fact > F8F
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2005, 09:20:23 AM »
Its intended deployment was as an anti-kamikaze point defence fighter, stressing climb rate, speed, and firepower. It was to replace the FM-2 Wildcats that were performing a lot of BARCAP roles off of the CVEs. I dont beleive it was ever intended to replace the F6F and F4U, which were to bear the brunt of the USN/USMCs strike and close support missions on the Home Islands, from the Fast Carriers.

As to the nexus of the design of the F8F, I don't have that handy. Might break out a few books later. Im not sure that it was designed "on the drawing board" as an anti-kamikaze a/c, since the 1st use of the Kamikazes in large # was 10/44.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2005, 09:27:04 AM by Squire »
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Offline Angus

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Myth or fact > F8F
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2005, 10:33:52 AM »
Always thought that this little teddie was a direct descendant of the F6F.
Well, me again.....
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Offline Widewing

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« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2005, 10:59:11 AM »
Understanding the F8F requires understanding the internal decisions made at Grumman first.

At the time the F8F concept was being formed (long before there was a Kamikazi threat), Roy Grumman, Bud Gillies and Bob Hall made a visit to Britain to discuss fighter designs and get input from the Royal Navy. There Hall and Gillies had test flown a captured Fw 190. Both were very taken with the power management system and the stunning roll rate of the aircraft. Both also liked the excellent system integration of the 190. They didn't like the mixed armament and found the cowl guns an unneeded complication. They were not thrilled with vision over the engine. Neither man cared for the 190s poor stall characteristics, or its tendency to snap stall out of hard turns. Yet both men agreed that the 190 was a remarkably good fighter although clearly unsuited for carrier operation. Both Hall and Gillies felt that the Navy needed a fast climbing, agile fighter that would have superior turn rate to the 190, with better stall behavior (required for safe operation around the ship). Everyone was impressed with the 190's strength and emphasis on designing for easy mass production. Vision out of the semi-bubble canopy glass was also noted as being outstanding.

Upon returning to the Grumman facility, the influence of flying the Focke Wulf deliberately crept into the design process. The result was a fighter small, relatively light and extremely powerful for its size. Improved power controls reduced pilot workload. Initially, Hall found that the prototype was longitudinally unstable and ordered that the stabilizer span be increased by two feet. This improved stability to an acceptable level, although Hall didn't want another Hellcat, he wanted the F8F to be slightly unstable as he thought that this enhanced its agility. Eventually, Grumman adopted a dorsal fillet as well after seeing how much the P-51D improved by its addition (Hall flew the P-51D at the 1944 fighter conference).

Meanwhile, Grumman was proceeding with two examples of the XF6F-6. This was an improved Hellcat, powered by the same R-2800-18W engine and propeller combination flying in the XF4U-4. Performance was very good, out-climbing the XF4U-4 and giving up only about 10 mph in maximum speed. Since the F6F production could be quickly adapted to the revised aircraft, Manufacturing wanted the F6F-6 to go into production immediately. Hall (Director of the Experimental Department) wanted his F8F to get the nod. Arguments were made to Roy Grumman. Grumman, who saw great merit in both aircraft formally asked the Navy to make a decision. Not surprising, there were advocates of both types within the Naval Aviation hiarchy. However, it was determined that the F6F-5 was adequate for the short term as a new production line was set-up for the F8F and the Bearcat was selected.

Had the F6F-6 been selected, Grumman would have been delivering these in large numbers by November of 1944, meaning it would have been in combat no later than January of 1945, months before the F4U-4. Originally, the Navy planned to phase in the F6F-6 as they did the F6F-5, sending them to combat units as replacement aircraft as well as refitting units coming back from deployments. We all know that the F8F didn't see combat, although it was deployed on carriers enroute to Japan at the surrender.

If I had to make the choice between the F6F-6 and the F8F-1, I would have picked the improved Hellcat as this would have placed better aircraft in the fleet sooner. However, I would also have gotten F8F production underway at Eastern Aircraft ASAP, stopping FM-2 production immediately. Of course, the politics of such a decision would not have sat well with Grumman. Eastern did receive a contract for the FM3-1 (F8F-1) in February of 1945, but hadn't yet begun assembly when the war ended (largely because the obsolete FM-2 was consuming much of Eastern's resources). Another reason for selecting the F6F-6 was that the F4U-4 production was slow. Grumman was delivering Hellcats at nearly twice the rate F4Us were being delivered, and the F4U was being manufactured by Vought and Goodyear (and Brewster, until their pathetic delivery and quality control resulted in a cancelled contract). Getting better aircraft to the fleet as fast as possible would weigh heavy in my mind.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: December 04, 2005, 11:20:20 AM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline Krusty

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Myth or fact > F8F
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2005, 01:13:04 PM »
Yes but that's like saying "They looked at the capabilities of the clipped-wing spitXVI, and liked the roll rate and the climbing capabilites".

It doesn't mean they were copying the Fw190, they just wanted something that could do X, Y, and Z, and they made a plane based on their knowledge that would perform X, Y, and Z very well.

If you look at a lot of late war US designs, they share a lot of similar features, including general wing shape, wing layout, cockpit position and design, and engine placement. It's misleading to say the Fw190 "inspired it" -- that implies teh copy of design and/or artistic style. Rather they just looked at the FW190s speed, its roll rate and capabilities. They might have well just looked at the Spitfire, or the Mustang. It's not as if the F8F was ever designed to compete with the Fw190.

Offline HoHun

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Myth or fact > F8F
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2005, 02:39:31 PM »
Hi Krusty,

>It's misleading to say the Fw190 "inspired it" -- that implies teh copy of design and/or artistic style.

The F8F was a copy of the Fw 190 adapted to a US-built engine, US armament and the requirement for carrier capability.

Just look at the placement of the landing gear in front of the fore spar which leaves the main part of the wing a full-monocoque torsion box, a unique feature of the Fw 190 and the "secret" of its strong wing construction.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Krusty

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Myth or fact > F8F
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2005, 03:07:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Krusty,

>It's misleading to say the Fw190 "inspired it" -- that implies teh copy of design and/or artistic style.

The F8F was a copy of the Fw 190 adapted to a US-built engine, US armament and the requirement for carrier capability.

Just look at the placement of the landing gear in front of the fore spar which leaves the main part of the wing a full-monocoque torsion box, a unique feature of the Fw 190 and the "secret" of its strong wing construction.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)


I disagree. Look at the placement of the landing gear, yes! The P51 and the P47 both had it too, omigaw, we were stealing LW plans from before we knew there was a Fw190!!!

:P

Also look at the other planes of the time. The other US designs are more likely to have influenced the F8F, because they were already around.

Claiming that the F8F is a copy of the Fw190 is silly.