Author Topic: Pilot Reports 'Missile' Fired at Jetliner Near LAX (11/28/05)  (Read 1253 times)

Offline Wolfala

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Pilot Reports 'Missile' Fired at Jetliner Near LAX (11/28/05)
« on: December 06, 2005, 02:05:50 AM »
http://www.kyw1060.com/news_archives_detail.cfm?newsitemid=50753

Pilot Reports 'Missile' Fired at Jetliner Near LAX (11/28/05)

FBI agents and Homeland Security officials spent the weekend investigating the report of a possible missile fired at an American Airlines plane taking off from Los Angeles International Airport.

Sources tell ABC News the pilot of American Airlines Flight 621, en route to Chicago, radioed air traffic controllers after takeoff from LAX. He told them a missile had been fired at the aircraft and missed.

The plane was over water when the pilot said he saw a smoke trail pass by the cockpit.

FBI agents believe it was a flare or a bottle rocket, but say they may never know if that's what it actually was.


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Offline skernsk

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Pilot Reports 'Missile' Fired at Jetliner Near LAX (11/28/05)
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2005, 09:04:53 AM »
Hmm, flare or bottle rocket.  What would you say is the max altitude of one of them?

I've never headed out of LAX over the water but I would venture to guess that if that plane was over water it was likely higher than a bottle rocket or flare could travel.

Offline Maverick

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Pilot Reports 'Missile' Fired at Jetliner Near LAX (11/28/05)
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2005, 09:05:43 AM »
Flare or bottle rocket. HHHMMM what's wrong with this supposition.

First what was the altitude of the airliner when it was passed by the aleged bottle rockt or flare?

Secondly what was the speed of the aircraft when it was passed by the object?

I haven't seen ANY bottle rocket that would PASS an airliner even on lift off from take off. The bird was over water at the time so it should have had more than a couple hundred feet altitude and definately more than 120 knotts.

Flare??? Maybe but again it depends on the answers to the above listed questions as well as the angle of passing. Rear to front or below to above, front to rear?
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Offline Terror

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Pilot Reports 'Missile' Fired at Jetliner Near LAX (11/28/05)
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2005, 09:54:27 AM »
Any of these could easily be mistaken for a missile:  http://www.tripoli.org/ .

Hell, some are modeled after real missiles...

You are supposed to only launch rockets like those under controlled conditions, but some people just can't wait to launch a newly finished rocket...

Terror

Offline ATA

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Pilot Reports 'Missile' Fired at Jetliner Near LAX (11/28/05)
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2005, 11:37:40 AM »
If it were a missile how the hell do you miss a big arse jetliner!!!!????
What kind of missile was that,RPG?lol

Offline Wolfala

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Pilot Reports 'Missile' Fired at Jetliner Near LAX (11/28/05)
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2005, 11:56:13 AM »
Now this...is my type of clustered engine.

All black powder motors, probally F's from the arrangement.

Count them all - figure at about 80 Newton second impulse per engine. Big big number, and risky. I blew up a 1/3 scale PAC-2 rocket that weighed about 15 lbs with a black powder that had a motor casing failure.

I tried counting 1 of the clusters at the top left and got lost at 51.

Wolf
« Last Edit: December 06, 2005, 11:58:35 AM by Wolfala »


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Offline USHilDvl

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Pilot Reports 'Missile' Fired at Jetliner Near LAX (11/28/05)
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2005, 12:07:51 PM »
OK, here's what does not compute for me...

Professional airline pilot can't tell the difference between a bottle rocket and a surface -to-air missile??  Right.  :huh

Professional airline pilot can't see the difference in trajectory between a flare (lobbed) and a missile (linear tracking).  Right.  :rolleyes:

In my limited experience with those who build and fly high-powered amateur rockets, they are extremely careful and diligent people, who would never contemplate a high-power launch anywhere near an active airport.  Possible, yes...probable, no.

I don't know anything about this incident, or even if it is real, but I cannot believe that a SAM and a bottle rocket could ever, EVER be mistaken for each other...by anyone!  Seems patently absurd to me.  However, I CAN believe that if a shoulder-mounted man-portable SAM was fired at an American commercial airliner, that the public would be spoon-fed whatever pap necessary to prevent a panic, political backlash and the crushing economic blow of another general airline shutdown.

Could you imagine our fearless leaders trying to explain how rogue military equipment was smuggled in, transported and successfully employed after almost 5 years of huge investments in "Homeland Security"?

Like I said, I don't know what really happened...but a bottle-rocket?  Just how stupid do we look, anyway?

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.


Offline Wolfala

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Pilot Reports 'Missile' Fired at Jetliner Near LAX (11/28/05)
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2005, 12:30:59 PM »
Interesting note - I just checked that weblink again - the story was removed.


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Offline RightF00T

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Pilot Reports 'Missile' Fired at Jetliner Near LAX (11/28/05)
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2005, 12:34:58 PM »
Wolfala I can't quite grasp the size of the rockets on there.  Can you post a bigger high-res pic?

Offline eagl

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Pilot Reports 'Missile' Fired at Jetliner Near LAX (11/28/05)
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2005, 01:23:44 PM »
ushildvl,

If you don't see the object, there is almost no way to tell at a glance what's making a particular smoke trail.

The LAX departure, if I recall correctly, goes over water.  Some commercially available signaling flares can exceed 1500 ft in altitude, travel quickly and may look like a missile, and leave a smoke trail that has just that kind of "wiggle" that looks like a guided missile, especially if the winds shift at all near the ground.

So yea, any pilot including a military pilot, seeing something bright with a smoke trail flashing past, will probably have no idea exactly what it was.

If they were over water, my initial guess would be that some drunk tard in a boat (Where was SOB that weekend?) fired his flaregun at the airliner trying to be cute.  Or it could even have been a boater in distress firing the gun, although that's fairly farfetched unless once again the guy was drunk because only a moron would fire a flare at an aircraft on takeoff.

If it was a missile, yikes.  But chances are if something did actually happen, it was just a flare or something like that.  Remember, uber-tards have been shining high powered lasers at landing airlines for years now, so some moron launching a marine flare at a plane on takeoff is certainly not an unusually unexpected event.

On a good note, there are at least 2 commercial variants of military missile defense systems being fast-tracked through R&D and certification, so hopefully high-risk airlines will have an affordable response to any potential missile threat in the next couple of years.
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Offline BlckMgk

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Pilot Reports 'Missile' Fired at Jetliner Near LAX (11/28/05)
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2005, 01:56:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wolfala
Now this...is my type of clustered engine.

All black powder motors, probally F's from the arrangement.

Count them all - figure at about 80 Newton second impulse per engine. Big big number, and risky. I blew up a 1/3 scale PAC-2 rocket that weighed about 15 lbs with a black powder that had a motor casing failure.

I tried counting 1 of the clusters at the top left and got lost at 51.

Wolf[


Counted 43 top right.

But how in the world do you ignite all of them at once?!

-BM

Offline USHilDvl

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Pilot Reports 'Missile' Fired at Jetliner Near LAX (11/28/05)
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2005, 02:52:53 PM »
You make a good point, eagl.  In fact, I can picture the flare scenario you described...low-vis, low alt over water and a questionable view angle...could be hard to make a determination.  Especially since the trail is wobbly as you pointed out...I've seen that myself.  However...wouldn't the velocity have some bearing on the observation?  Perhaps it's a very subtle matter of timing...'when' you see can be as important as 'what' you see.  See?

However...no one will convince me that a SAM and a bottle rocket are easy to confuse.  Nope...just cannot buy into that one.

I'm ashamed to admit that I really didn't properly consider the uber-tard factor when first responding.  Always a possibility, and a very plausible source of an errant flare.  Especially so since one of my favorite mantras goes as follows;  "Remember, the two most common elements in the Universe are Hydrogen...and Stupidity"  :D

Since Wolf pointed out that the 'news'story seems to have vanished...it could be just another example of true professional journalism.  You know, where the reporter and editor publish what sells, rather than fact.  Wouldn't surprise me at all.

Unfortunately, I can sure believe that such a thing could happen, and that we would be lied to 'for the public good', but that's another thread entirely.

I, too, have seen some references to the commercial anti-missile system development.  I'm of mixed opinions right now...good thing if you're in a plane that just became a target.  Could the presence of them tempt more religious lunatics to try converting people by the plane-load?  Dunno.  Got to add a ton to costs though.  And..would not one of these systems require essentially loading warheads onto a commercial aircraft?  I don't recall the details of the systems under development, so I truly don't know.  Maybe somebody here has more direct experience.

But, bottle-rockets?   STILL no way.  :rolleyes:

New story..now I'm stickin' to this one.


Offline eagl

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Pilot Reports 'Missile' Fired at Jetliner Near LAX (11/28/05)
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2005, 03:08:50 PM »
The 2 systems I read about are IR laser turret designs that have no expendables.  The system consists of high resolution UV sensors to detect launch and exhaust plumes, and a turret containing an imaging sensor (IR or multi-spectrum) and a laser.  If it's anything like the military systems discussed in AW&ST, the sensors match the incoming signature against a threat database (which is at the very least proprietary information) and then the laser fires a sequence specifically designed to defeat the type of missile it thinks is heading it's way.

Yea, it'll cost a bunch but it looks like at least one of the systems only takes a few days to install and the turret pod can be removed and replaced in about an hour.  More importantly, my amature analysis of the required FAA certification is that it'll take about as much paperwork to certify as an inflight coffemaker since it's interaction with the aircraft involves a power hookup, an on-off switch, and maybe some status lights.  The drag penalty should be minimal and the whole system weighs about 500 lbs.

Regarding the article disappearing from the news site without any warning, the so-called "patriot act" recently renewed by congress includes provisions that allow the homeland security department to not only censor anyone or any media source, but it also has provisions that make it a felony to even mention the fact that you've been censored or asked for information.   If you violate any of these rules, you can be chucked in jail without charges because the charges would be just as classified as the information they censored.  And if you ask to read the wording of the law that says they can do this, you'll be told that the law is classified in the interest of national security.

It's unconstitutional as hell but that's the sorry state of the US right now.  It's no wonder the BATF is trying to confiscate guns...  They're afraid US citizens will realize what's going on and revolt, and I don't really blame them for being scared.

But that's another thread...

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Offline Red Tail 444

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Pilot Reports 'Missile' Fired at Jetliner Near LAX (11/28/05)
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2005, 03:27:28 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Terror
Any of these could easily be mistaken for a missile:  http://www.tripoli.org/ .

Hell, some are modeled after real missiles...

You are supposed to only launch rockets like those under controlled conditions, but some people just can't wait to launch a newly finished rocket...

Terror


Terror!!!


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Offline ChickenHawk

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Pilot Reports 'Missile' Fired at Jetliner Near LAX (11/28/05)
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2005, 04:41:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wolfala
Now this...is my type of clustered engine.

All black powder motors, probally F's from the arrangement.

Count them all - figure at about 80 Newton second impulse per engine. Big big number, and risky. I blew up a 1/3 scale PAC-2 rocket that weighed about 15 lbs with a black powder that had a motor casing failure.

I tried counting 1 of the clusters at the top left and got lost at 51.

Wolf


There are 7 groups of 44 engines each which brings the total to 308 engines.

To me they look like regular Estes D sized engines. I found them online for around $4.23 each.  If they are F like you say, then the price would probably be a bit higher.

$4.23 X 308 = $1302.84

One thousand three hundred two dollars and eighty four cents per launch.

That's a lot of dough, not to mention a lot of time and effort for a single launch.

would I like to see it set alight?  You bet! :cool:
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