Ta152C

[Larry]

Was wondering if anyone has any info to compare our Ta152H to the Ta152C. I have a photo showing that the C had 2x Mg 151/20 in the cowl 2x Mg 151/20 in the inner wing and could have eather a Mk 103 or a Mk108 in the hub. I was wondering what the production numbers are on the C, and if its close to the H then if HTC could think about replaceing them since most people, includeing me, think that the one we have now isnt worth perking. If the C model is good enough to be put in the game then by just looking at its armament then I would pay as much as a Chog. Here  the photo.





Please people dont turn this into another LW vs. everyone else.

[DoKGonZo]

Geee ... wouldn't the weight of the extra guns affect the "performace" ...

But, yeah, that guns package would make it worth the perks. Also I think the C variant had wings more like a D9 (i.e. it wasn't optimized for high alt like the H) so it'd retain the wonderful Fw roll rate.

[Karnak]

I have a fairly good book on Kurt Tank's stuff at home.  I'll see if I can get the numbers for you tonight.

[Krusty]

The guns did weigh it down, and on top of that the wings were just a tad longer than Dora wings (no long-span -H wings) so that further affects performance, and a slightly less powerful engine. So compared to the H-1 it would be a dog.... But a dog I'd fly repeatedly!!

EDIT: I did find one source that said the Ta152C was fitted with a DB603L (with MW50) instead of the H-1s Junkers 213 E (which had GM1 and MW50) engine. It was considered one of the best medium-altitude fighters of the war.

Supposedly the 152C had all the flight characteristics of the A but had greater range and much more engine power. Considering that the AH 190A8 ought to fly similar to the way the AH 190a5 flies, and the A5 ought to fly worse, can you imaging flying AH's 190a5 with 4x20mms, 1x30mm, and a supercharged inline engine????

Oh I'm sorry, let me get a mop to wipe up all this drool.. oooh, there I go again! Hurry, get me a shamoi!

EDIT2: blueprint link

[Wilbus]

Got quite alot of info about it, will see if I can post some pictures tomorrow.

There were some 40 finished fuselages waiting for engines when the Americans overran the factory. Another two planes, with installed engines (most likely DB 603 E's) had left the factory, where they went and what happaned to them is unknown.

Another three finished prototype C's were found, two of them flyable and one destroyed by the Germans. The destroyed one had the DB 603-LA engine installed (better high altitude performance than the E).

No pre-production (C-0) or Production (C-1) planes were delivered to any operational units. Not even to any evaluation squadrons.  

During testing, a prototype, Ta 152 V6 (using a DB 603 E) reached speeds of 547 km/h (341 mph) at sea-level at Combat Power (2,500 rpm and 1.45 ataboost) and 647 km/h (404 Mph) at its maximum boost altitude.

Using emergency power (2,500 rpm and 1.95 ata boost) it reached 617 km/h (385 mph) at sea-level and 687 km/h at its maximum boost altitude.

C1 weight would be 5322 kg (11708 lbs) fully loaded (including full fuel, guns and ammo aswell as MW50 system filled up). 2x Mg151/20 with 150 rpg (cowling). 2x Mg151/20 with 175 rpg (wingroots) and a Mk 108 30mm cannon with 90 shells, engine mounted.

The DB 603 was planned for the production versions and the DB 603 L as a stopgap untill the LA was available.

Will give more info later.... "24" on TV now.

More over. The plane looks more like a Dora/Ta 152 hybrid, that would mean a new 3D modell so no go in just changing the H for a C. Second, the plane ever entered production.

[Larry]

That sucks it sounds like it could have been a pretty good plane.


http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/ta152.html


"Series production orders for the Ta 152C had been placed in October 1944, the delays being a result of the Luftwaffe still continuing to support the Jumo 213 over the DB 603 for the Ta 152 as late as the autumn of 1944. The Ta 152C with the lighter DB 603 engine was otherwise identical to the Ta 152B. It was considered primarily as a Zerstorer. The MW 50 boost installation for the enhancement of low-altitude performance was standard. An Fw 190D prototype had been rebuilt and flown with a DB 603 engine in support of the Ta 152C program, and this plane took to the air for the first time in October 1944. During December 1944 and January 1945, the first Ta 152C-O service test aircraft joined the test program. The definitive production version was to be the Ta 152C-1, and it was hoped that the first examples could be rolling off the production lines in April of 1945. However, series production of the Ta 152C was only just beginning when Allied forces overran the assembly plants, so this fighter never entered service with the Luftwaffe.

The Ta 152C-1 was powered by a Daimler-Benz DB 603LA twelve-cylinder liquid cooled engine rated at 2100 hp (2300 hp with MW 50) for takeoff and 1750 hp at 29,530 feet (1900 hp at 27,560 feet with MW 50). Armed with one engine-mounted 30-mm MK 108 cannon with 90 rounds, two fuselage-mounted 20-mm MG 151 cannon with 250 rpg, and two wing-mounted 20-mm MG252 cannon with 175 rpg. Maximum speed was 227 mph at sea level (356 mph with MW 50), 436 mph at 37,730 feet (460 mph at 32,810 feet with MW 50). Initial climb rate was 3050 feet per minute and service ceiling was 40,350 feet. Weights were 8849 lbs empty, 10,658 lbs normal loaded, and 11,733 pounds maximum. Wingspan was 36 feet 1 inch, length was 35 feet 6 1/2 inches, height was 11 feet 1 inch, and wing area was 290.89 square feet."

[Guppy35]

You can have that one if we can have the Spitfire 21...and that one did reach squadron service and did fire some shots in anger before the war was over

[Krusty]

C-1 was the first production version. There were some made. More than the H-1? Probably not.

As for seeing combat -- well the Do 335 saw combat, while being tested for combat readiness or some such. However records were so poor, or lost, or never created, at the end of the war that we would never be able to prove the Do335 saw combat. Same for the C-1. I doubt they'd have them and NOT use them, because every way you look was the front line for Germans at the time C-1s were being made.

My $0.02: I'd love to see it in AH.

My expectations: We won't.

EDIT: I found an excerpt from a book about the first testing of the Ta152H-1s they captured at the end of the war.

"Ta-152H1 Werke# 150168 as delivered to the October 1945 'Exhibition of German Aircraft and Equipment' display at Farnborough by Eric Brown on the 22nd.
Upon arrival from Brize Norton where it had been in storeage since 18 August; the infamous German Brakes faded completely and Brown only saved the fighter by leaving the runway for grass-drag and opposite spin-turning on rudder to prevent a ground loop.

Inavailability of MW50 and GM-1 prevented full exploitation and comparitive evaluation of the plane's performance envelope but Brown did make a 35K power run, 'dry', at 425mph. Speed/climb/turn were all variously 'competitive but inferior' to the Spit XIX but close enough to have been redressed by the boosters. Range was superior.

Longitudinal/pitch stability was better than the radial butcher bird but still arduous to maintain under hand control for protracted lengths while roll rate and crispness had noticeably detiorated from the original sparkle.


Eric Browns _Wings Of The Luftwaffe_, pgs 87-91 - description by Kurt Plummer "

[That went along with this photo:

http://www.warbirdphotos.net/aviapix/Fighters/Fw190/ta152h1.jpg ]

So that would seem to imply that, depending on the info used for AH, ours may be underpowered. It sure handles differently than that.

What was the Spit XIX? And how did it perform? What was top speed/climb?

[Karnak]

Edited to keep thread on track.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Krusty


What was the Spit XIX? And how did it perform? What was top speed/climb?

Spit 19 was the recce version of the Spitfire XIV.  No guns, good cameras.

[Krusty]

Yes, but the Ta152H-1 was tested against the XIX, so I was wondering what the baseline specs for the XIX were.

Seeing that it's a late ware bubble top "20-series" I'm guessing it had phenominal climb rate and fast speed.

In which case perhaps our Ta152 climb rate isn't modeled correctly.

[Guppy35]

XIX looks like 19 to me

Performance specs for the Spitfire 19

Maximum speed at 26000 feet 446 MPH
At Sea Level  360
Cruising at 35000 feet 398 mph

Range 1,085 miles with 90 gallon overload tank

Initial climb 4310 feet per minute

Time to 35000 feet 15.5 minutes.

Service ceiling 42000 feet

[Krusty]

I'm not dyslexic, I swear!!

Good catch, but still a pretty late-war plane, no?

EDIT:

"Initial climb 4310 feet per minute

Time to 35000 feet 15.5 minutes."

So, a Ta152 without GM1 or MW50 would have a "competitive but inferior" climb rate... Say 3750 or so? More perhaps? 4000?

Whereas in AH we can barely break 2250 without WEP. Something's not right here.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Krusty
I'm not dyslexic, I swear!!

Good catch, but still a pretty late-war plane, no?

Yep 1944-45.  First deliveries in May 44.  Pressurized and really able to get up there.  Postwar during testing in 1948 they were running over England unopposed at 49K.  Radar couldn't continuously track them and the jets had difficulty getting up there to em.

[Larry]

Originally posted by Larry
Please people dont turn this into another LW vs. everyone else.

Come on I asked this already and its startings up already. Keep this thread on track.