Bombs/rockets vs GV's

[Bodhi]

Originally posted by BALSUR
ok, a couple of things to address here.
1st. Micheal Wittman's tiger was surrounded by allied tanks and destroyed. At first , it was thought that Typhoons destroyed the tanks with rockets. That was later negated.

That is completely wrong.

Wittman's Tiger was caught in the open by Allied air cover.  Whether it be Typhoons or any other rocket carrying jabo, the top hull penetrations were consistent with rocket penetrations causing the internal explosions that destroyed the tank.

Or maybe, the Allied hover tanks fired down onto the top deck and turret of his tank....  

[Grits]

I think the easy solution to this problem (from HTC's and both sides of the player perspective) is to make close bomb impacts to a GV cause the existing "pilot wound" effect. You dont die instantly, and you GV will still work to some degree, but you are essentially out of commision and HTC already has the effect coaded.

I dont think anyone can make a reasonable arguement that a close 500-1k bomb impact should not give GV crews a "pilot wound".

[Hades55]

There is not exist, even today, a tank who can resist a straight hit from a bomb 500lbs, let 1000 lbs and more.

If the bomb hit 2-3 metres away thats a different story,
 
but a straight hit on his head, the tank is toast.

I am talking for today tanks, M1s ,Leopards2, T80s. Let the WII tanks.

Forget wwii HE rockets. Only anti armor rockets maybe do some damage.

In AHII take two 1000lbs, go @ 5-6k and dive straight down on his head 70-80d angle and let him wandering what have happent

[Karnak]

One site I looked briefly at claims Wittman's tank was destroyed by a rocket from a Tiffe:

Many sources say that it was destroyed by the "Firefly Ambush", but different units claimed to ambush and destroy Wittmann's Tiger, including those of the either 1st Polish Armoured Division, 4th Canadian Armoured Division (Canadian Shermans supposedly surrounded and shot Wittmann's Tiger to pieces) or 33rd British Independent Armored Brigade. In the memoirs of a former member Mr.F.R of sSSPzAbt 101, official version at the time stated that Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed by an airplane bomb. Both presented a picture of Wittmann's Tiger without its turret with the gun barrel placed on the hull which in fact is the picture of SS-Untersturmführer Alfred Günther's Tiger destroyed by an airplane bomb at Evrecy. Along with those two versions, some claims were made that units which were not even present in the area at the time, were responsible for destroying Wittmann's Tiger. Both versions were proven wrong in 1945, by Mr.Serge Varin who found Tiger #007. Mr.Varin was interested in this tank because its turret was teared away from the hull. Mr.Varin examined Wittmann's Tiger and noticed that it was not penetrated by any shells fired at it during the fighting. The only damage to the hull was a big hole in the rear, near the engine deck. further examination Mr.Varin concluded that the impact came from the air. The rocket hit Tiger's rear deck (made of 25mm thick armor), penetrated the air intakes and exploded causing the explosion in the engine compartment and fighting compartment which ignited the stored ammunition. The second explosion instantly killed the entire crew and blew off the turret into the air. Wittmann's Tiger was destroyed by a rocket fired from a Royal Air Force Hawker "Typhoon" MkIB.

Wikipedia gives time to both sides:

Wittmann was killed in action less than two months after Villers-Bocage, on August 8. Participating in Operation Totalise, his tank was destroyed near the town of Cintheaux, probably during a skirmish after the ambush from the rear of his company by tanks of the 1st Northamptonshire Yeomanry. His tank was hit by two shots to the right rear flank which tore the turret. The shots came from a single Sherman Firefly commanded by Sgt. Gordon and gunned by Trooper Joe Ekins, of the 3rd Platoon, A Squadron, part of the 33rd Armoured Brigade at around 1240 hours. Most researchers give credence to this version of events, as it corroborates with both the Allied and the German records and eyewitness testimony.

However, other units in the area also claimed that the hit was theirs: the 4th Canadian Armoured Division and the 2nd Polish Armoured Regiment (of the 1st Polish Armoured Division under General Maczek. There is also speculation that it was a high-explosive (RP-3) rocket from a RAF Hawker Typhoon aircraft that dealt the fatal blow to Wittmann's Tiger.

[Morpheus]

An interesting film of what happens when ammo ignites in a tank.

http://www.furballunderground.com/guncam/ammo_cookoff.wmv

[BALSUR]

well, it looks like there are a few differant stories out there how Wittmann died. Thank you Karnak, that was an excellant post. you managed to to put the information out there without trying to belittle people. unlike others who seem to act as if they should be professors at our most distiguished colleges.

[Bodhi]

Originally posted by BALSUR
well, it looks like there are a few differant stories out there how Wittmann died. Thank you Karnak, that was an excellant post. you managed to to put the information out there without trying to belittle people. unlike others who seem to act as if they should be professors at our most distiguished colleges.

Balsur,

When one speaks as though they are authorative with regards to what happened with regards to something along those lines, and is wrong, yeah, I get harsh.  My apologies.

Let me ask you this?  Have you ever seen a picture of any of Wittman's Tigers prior to his and his crew's death?  Have you seen any pictures of the tank after their deaths?  

Have you ever read anything at length about Wittman?  

I spend a fair amount of my time studying WW2 history, and working with it.  I'd say I average a minimum of 50-60 hours a week just at work doing just that.  Not to mention the time I waste playing AH2 and reading at home.  While I am not going to be a "professor" at a distinguished university, I will be teaching an elective class to USAFA students during the summers starting in 2007 from our new facilities.

[cobia38]

5 inch american high velocity air launched rockets  had a traveling speed of over 925 mph and could penitrate 1.5 inches of cold rolled metal  or 3 feet of concreate. ther is no way a panzer or tiger would survive a side/rear/top hit from this.

[Murdr]

Originally posted by BALSUR
3rd, As for the concusion debate going on. Since hopefully none of us has been in a tank with ordenance dropped on we'll only have to believe what the people who have lived through say. The statements I have read describes tiger crews surviving bombardment. Karnak has stated above that he has read this and concurs with its accuracy so, why the opposition? Find a study that says differant.

Better get on that morph....Go out and find first hand accounts from people who didnt survive bombardment to balance his scientific sample.   DOH.

[hubsonfire]

Originally posted by Murdr
Better get on that morph....Go out and find first hand accounts from people who didnt survive bombardment to balance his scientific sample.   DOH.

We're way ahead of you, murdr. We've already contacted thousands of people who didn't survive bombardment, in the hopes of confirming our position. We're just waiting to hear back from them at this point.

[BALSUR]

Yes Bodhi, I have seen before and after pictures of Wittmann's tigers. Yes, I also study WW2 history to the point that I went and lived in Germany for 2 years. I traced the tracks form Normandy to Kelstein Haus. I've gone to every museum and memorial I could. Hell, I was in Bastogne during the 60th reunion. I went all over Belgium and theres absolutely tons of stuff there, unlike France. I got video of an actually Panther tank running with transversing turret in Sinsheim. I've seen what remains of the ME 262 graveyard outside Stuttgard. What Iam trying to say here I don't go off 1/2 cocked. There is nothing certian in war. Anything and everything is possible so all I ask is to look at someone else's view's. If you don't agree with them there's no reason to get insulting or blunt No one forces anyone else to post a response only you can control that. Now, we can look at things from all angles or just forget it and say everyone is wrong and only what I say is right. Its up to us to decide how we are going to communicate.

[Morpheus]

I got video of an actually Panther tank running with transversing turret in Sinsheim

It wouldnt happen to have been this Panther would it?
Small world maybe.

I also have film of a man inserting his head into the womb of another woman. That makes me one up on you.

[MOIL]

Morph:
"And I would stop your whinning. This crap of insta-fix click on the box-o-new-tank is one of the gamiest features the game has. Bar none. You have guys spawn camping, with boxes upon boxes of suplies, they take a hit, click on the supplies and they're like new again?! LOL Give me a break. Where's my freakin supplies when I am being shot up in a fighter? ROTFL. IN THE BEST OF CODITIONS RESUPLY WAS TEDIOUS AND TIME CONSUMING. Not to mention what it was like if the crew was under fire"

I would agree, it is kind of gamey-lame but it is the only thing HT has put in the game in order to simulate repair of a veh. On the same note, I have read many places that it takes a hell of a lot longer than 30 sec's to refuel AND rearm a WWII plane, and that's in good conditions.

I will also agree that bombs and rockets if properly placed would do tremendous damage to the tank and or crew. FACT: more WWII A/C were shot down by AA fire than another A/C.
The Germans were very effective with AA batteries and 88's

My 2 cents

[Morpheus]

On the same note, I have read many places that it takes a hell of a lot longer than 30 sec's to refuel AND rearm a WWII plane, and that's in good conditions

I see what you're trying to get at, but. Atleast you have to land a plane!

Tracked Tiger, busted turret, no engine... M3 drives up to a tiger like a dynamite truck drives up to a dead bloated beached whale and with the push of a button.. Vuallha! All better. Atleast make the supplies so they can only fix one thing at a time.

1 box of supplies = 1 new track or 1 repaired dead engine, or 1 repaired dead turret... Or resupplied ammo.

[Larry]

Originally posted by Morpheus
I see what you're trying to get at, but. Atleast you have to land a plane!

Tracked Tiger, busted turret, no engine... M3 drives up to a tiger like a dynamite truck drives up to a dead bloated beached whale and with the push of a button.. Vuallha! All better. Atleast make the supplies so they can only fix one thing at a time.

1 box of supplies = 1 new track or 1 repaired dead engine, or 1 repaired dead turret... Or resupplied ammo.

And on top of that make it take 30secs. for each one.