Justifying flying for LW

[Karnak]

Wardog,
How do you like it down there?  I was down there a year ago for new years.  I posted to Combatsim's EAW forum from down there.  The keyboards ARE different.  

StSanta,
The only thing I can't understand is guys who'll ONLY fly Luftwaffe aircraft.  I prefer flying British and Japanese aircraft, but I still fly German, American, Russian and Italian aircraft once in a while.

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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Sisu
-Karnak

[Nath-BDP]

54ed, ever hear about what Gross Deutscheland Division trainees had to go through? That's discipline.

[Voss]

Okay. Seriously.

Have you gotten any yet, WD? Ah, who am I kidding. You're a fighter jock on leave! Of course you have!  

But, on with the thread... I did say serious?

I have called you LW guys nazi's myself! I never meant anything by it. Hate makes people stupid and you get stupid when I call you nazi's. I like that.  

Unfortunately, I find that some of your friends fly U.S. hardware.

Now that you are on to that tactic (nazi bullhorn), I'll change it.

Kratzer, I know what you mean. I've been to Germany. Now, here in Arkansas, people ask me how I liked being in Nazi-land. Not everyone's like that, though. The division of intellect can be a wide bridge! To kids though, it is just a matter of choosing sides, to a point. Makes you wonder what they'll be like after ten years of playing nazi. Some of us have been flying online that long!

Voss 13th T.A.S.

[Glasses]

Some newbie logged in a couple of days ago and asked why was I flying a Nazi plane I replied do you see the plane somehwere where it says <<LOOK THIS IS A NAZI PLANE>> he replied no. I said there's your answer. He wouldn't let it go. I just squelched him.

Regardless of whatever reason you have, certainly political  wouldn't be a viable  option, you won't redeem yourself because your flying that specific plane or you believe in any Ideology . just fly the damned plane and shoot allied scum down with superior skill(well not always but hey we try).

In fact it was Animal who got me interested in LW iron he used to fly(back in beta/post beta) 109s and Fw all the time and he taught me the basics of BNZ ACM then later I polished it when people like Hristo Nath ,and Fishu came along  who made me fly smarter less than agressive and refined my flying.

Whichever your political POV a flight sim ,or game is not somewhere to express your ideology and it won't reflect anything ,just fly and let it go. If it offends someone good riddance I didn't do it.

good night!

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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.

[Dowding]

 

Bottom line from a military professional (me): severe discipline can make a man fight, but it won't make him fight well.

Severe discipline is the reason why Japanese soldiers routinely raped women in territories they captured. The soldiers were routinely beaten in training by superiors and were expected to be brutal in the field. In Manchuria, they used Chinese peasants for live bayonet practise. There was nothing out of the ordinary in this. If the Allies had been trained in the same conditions, they would have been exactly the same.

Severe discipline is not necessarily a great military ideal.

In reply to the topic under discussion, LW planes were designed to further the Nazi cause, flown to further the Nazi cause (or defend it in the latter stages of the war). There is no way you can get away from that fact.

Flying LW really has nothing to do with Nazi ideals, but don't deny the real motivations behind the design and use of the LW planes.

[Duckwing6]

Santa i like you .. but why don't you just shutup and fly ?

(gawd that Stick can't take THAT long to deliver....)

DW6

[Jimdandy]

 

Originally posted by Ozark:
It's your $30 U.S. dollars.....You don't have to justify anything.

3 days ago I bought a FW190 model...What does that mean to me...hey, cool airplane...that's it.  

Ditto. Except mine was a Bf109F4. I hope to collect all of the planes of WWII. What this game is to me is being a little kid and grabbing that model plane that had the pretty colors or the cool shape and racing around the front yard with it making airplane noises. My neighbors would have me put in a straight jacket if I did that so I do it on here. If you listen real close on RW you'll hear me in the background yelling roooooooooom roooooooooooooom atatatatat roooooooooom!  

[Kratzer]

 

Originally posted by Dowding:
If the Allies had been trained in the same conditions, they would have been exactly the same.

Severe discipline is not necessarily a great military ideal.

That was one of the reasons Hitler was convinced that the Allied invasion would fail - he thought the fat, undisciplined sons of democracy could never stand up to the disciplined, hardened german soldier.  Early German victories convinced him of this.

As for knowing that the hardware was made for the furthering of the nazi empire... I think that is exactly where the line is drawn between most players here, and the people I was mentioning earlier.  To them, they are all evil nazis - to us, we see the evil nazis using their populace as tools of their meglomania...  big difference, wouldn't you say?

Interesting thread.

[Dowding]

 

...we see the evil nazis using their populace as tools of their meglomania...

It sounds like you are trying to make the Nazis out to be a powerful minority exercising their will over a dissenting population. This really flies in the face of the election results in the thirties; the National Socialist Workers' Party increased its votes vote by over 800 per cent (nearly 6.5 million), going from the ninth largest party in the Reichstag to second.

People were desperate to join the party in the thirties, but were desperate to dis-associate themselves from it in the late forties.

[54Ed]

 

If the Allies had been trained in the same conditions, they would have been exactly the same.

I don't know that I fully agree with you here, though I understand your point.  It wasn't just the brutality of training that made German and Japanese soldiers brutal to civilians.  It was the underlying ideology, which preached racial superiority.  Both the Nazis and the Japanese believed their opponents to be racially inferior subhuman species.  Once you dehumanize your opponent, it's easy to be cruel and beastly to civilians.  

Of course someone will point out that the Allies had their share of dehumanizing propaganda, and this is true.  But the Allies did not make ethnic dominance the very purpose of their political system.  The German and Japanese soldiers were only taking their cue from the ideology of the nation that sent them to war.

[Torque]

 

Originally posted by Kratzer:
That was one of the reasons Hitler was convinced that the Allied invasion would fail - he thought the fat, undisciplined sons of democracy could never stand up to the disciplined, hardened German soldier.  Early German victories convinced him of this.

That's ironic since the only reason the Allies won the war was because Hitler was in charge and had a fanatical ego which lacked discipline. Winston knew this and being one of the most brilliant minds of WWII managed to sway critical events in the BOB because of Adolf's posturing. Lets face it in the ground war the Germans were better equip and trained better. The German command structure up to the Divisional level ran circles around the Allies. Their downfall was above the Divisional command. Can you imagine Generals to scared to call their Chief Commanding Officer to release Panzer Divisions because he might be sleeping, while 5000 ships lay off of French coast etc.

This elitist "we are the master race" dick swinging soap box ranting blows, throw us all off a 10 story building we all paint the same picture on the pavement below although Fatty would be regarded as an impressionistic sorry dude it slipped out.

War is the most hideous destructive instinct we Humans posses but if it wasn't we would be in cages with chimpanzees taking photos of us to show their relatives back in Jersey. But hell it sure is fun to simulate and fascinates me.

What I am really trying to say is that Santa is a lederhosen wearing gurly man how can one debate the matter further from the above facts stated.


Harvest Moon    

[StSanta]

Duck, I spend my days just trying to get the smallest pieces of AH into my puter - in this case that consists of logging on nd watching ch1 and posting  .

So expect me to hit 3000 posts within the week  



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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

"I am the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldricht

[RAM]

When I was 8 I was making a collection of a series called "History of the Aviation". One part was sold each week up to 100. (Historia de la aviacion, in spanish).

 Happened that in the 30th and 31th parts I found about a plane I had never seen before (not strange, I was only EIGHT!  ). That plane was beautiful. I simply loved its looks. The plane was a Fw190A.

Later, when I first saw the "black sheep" series on TV I have to admit that the Corsair impressed me for its looks. Its the second plane I most like (far second after the 190, tho). The 109 is the third.

Why do I fly Fw190s almost exclusively?. Because I've loved them for 15 years. Nothing to do with nazis, socialists, democrats or idiots. I dont fly a doctrine, I FLY A PLANE!

Letting that aside, yes, I too admire most of the German aces in WWII. I admire some who were clearly anti-nazi (Stiegler, what a man!), and others who were nacionalsocialist pigs, but hell of pilots (Rudel...more than 500 tanks, thousands of vehicles, AND A BATTLESHIP!).

I can hate a pilot's political views, but at the same time admire his skills as pilots and fighting men.

I am sorry for those who are so blinded that they can't.

[Dowding]

 

I can hate a pilot's political views, but at the same time admire his skills as pilots and fighting men.

I am sorry for those who are so blinded that they can't.

Yeah, like I hate Hitler's political views, but at the same time admire his skills at trimming his moustache and shouting loudly.

RAM, it's a question of priority - you put pilot skill above hate-filled ideology, whereas I see it the other way around.

[jato757]

this is how i justify it, I LIKE BIG GUNS, and i like clibing fast and diving fast, and sometimes, people forget that this is just a game so whats the big deal, also like NATH said i think they look cool. i fly g2 g10 and ju 88, i guess its all on how someone flys, like the f4, if ya put it in a stall odds are you aint pullin out just becuase of its c/g, u all understand what im tryin to say, that is my justification

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