Author Topic: He-111 nose turret?  (Read 1705 times)

Offline frank3

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9352
He-111 nose turret?
« on: December 16, 2005, 02:55:11 AM »
I've been told that the Heinkel He-111 had a powered nose turret, but it looks like it only has a glass nose with a mg trough it!

Any info about this matter?

Frank

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
He-111 nose turret?
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2005, 10:15:12 AM »
Your info is wrong.

Offline scott123

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 126
He-111 nose turret?
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2005, 10:58:20 AM »
One of the last He 111's had a powered dorsal turret,I think it may have mounted a 151 2 cm cannon'pehaps this is the cause of the confusion.:confused:

Offline Kurfürst

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 921
      • http://www.kurfurst.org
He-111 nose turret?
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2005, 01:34:16 PM »
There was no nose turret, but powered turrets appeared on mid-war He 111s, the first AFAIK was the He 111 H-16/R1, which had it's dorsal postion (which was a MG 131 with armor on the H-11 already) fitted with an electric 360 degree traverse turret, sporting a 13mm MG 131.

The last He 111s from 1944 had this as standard.
The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site
http://www.kurfurst.org

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
He-111 nose turret?
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2005, 07:32:49 AM »
Pictures?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Kurfürst

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 921
      • http://www.kurfurst.org
He-111 nose turret?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2005, 08:19:44 AM »
Here's a He 111 H-20 for ya mit ze turm :

The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site
http://www.kurfurst.org

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
He-111 nose turret?
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2005, 08:28:55 AM »
Cute ;)

Always liked the elegant lines of the 111.

Reminds me a bit of.....the Spitfire :D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Kurfürst

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 921
      • http://www.kurfurst.org
He-111 nose turret?
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2005, 08:39:56 AM »
Yeah, I like it too and they're quite similiar. Probably the most elagant lines of all the early bombers, if not all, and very docile handling too.

Here's another H-20 :



Note the MG 131 turret, and the twin MG 81 beam guns.

In flight :

The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site
http://www.kurfurst.org

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
He-111 nose turret?
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2005, 08:58:12 AM »
One crashed recently - I think it was in Canada. Always sad to loose the old birds.
I belive they're restoring one at Duxford. Or maybe at Hendon. I've seen it actually.
It is truly pretty. The nose is awesome and the lines are sleek.

Told to have been a delight to handle and quite rugged.

Bombload 8x500 lbs?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Kurfürst

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 921
      • http://www.kurfurst.org
He-111 nose turret?
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2005, 09:17:24 AM »
Yep, 8 x 250 kg internally on the BoB era versions. Later models went up to 2500kg, and then 3000 kg (internal + external ?). With RATO it was possible to use 3250 kg.

Il2 Sturmovik has a version that carries 2 x SC 2000, not sure if it existed though. But it was the 111 that could carry the largest bomb sizes of all German mediums, on external carriers of course, 2500 kg bomb being the largest IIRC.

Yeah the lines are beutiful. I always felt that the He 111 was quite underrated compared to the Ju 88, which couldn't carry as heavy bombload internally, for example (othewise it was a wonderful plane).

I think there's a rahter nice Allied summary of an early 111H on Ring's site. Worth reading.
The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site
http://www.kurfurst.org

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
He-111 nose turret?
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2005, 01:09:57 PM »
Link? For Ring's website I mean. :)
Anyway they had 111's on floats as well, and they had V-1 carrying ones, as well as the ones with the big bombs. Really a thought for AH. For although the JU88 compares to the He111 a tad like the B26 to the B35, - i.e. "does everything a bit better" - the 111 was truly versatile and would be cool for future scenarios.

The craziest though, - what you see in Il-2, - the double one !!!
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
He-111 nose turret?
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2005, 03:00:21 PM »
The H series had a 2000KG internal load, and with external racks could carry over-sized bombs, ones that did not fit in the vertical bomb racks inside the Heinkel. It could carry 2x 500KG bombs on these racks, HOWEVER, the racks themselves covered the entire belly of the plane and blocked the internal bomb bay doors, so you could only have one or the other. Why take a lighter load if it's external? Well they had blockbuster bombs, dam busting bombs, special high-penetration bombs, etc, that were needed but would not fit in the narrow vertical bomb racks inside the Heinkel.

EDIT: As for Ju88/He111 comparison: The He111 was harder to manufacture, was slower, had shorter range, and was more vulnerable (debatable). The Ju88 could carry about the same internal load, twice the external load, could carry both internal and external at the same time (doubling the combat load of the He111) and do it at a faster speed, a faster cruising speed, and with a cheaper design. It was simply... "better".

Having said that I'd LOVE to have a BOB He111H-6. Hell I'd love to have a He111E-1 but that's just me >:P
« Last Edit: December 18, 2005, 03:03:59 PM by Krusty »

Offline Kurfürst

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 921
      • http://www.kurfurst.org
He-111 nose turret?
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2005, 08:24:27 AM »
Quote

As for Ju88/He111 comparison: The He111 was harder to manufacture, was slower, had shorter range, and was more vulnerable (debatable). The Ju88 could carry about the same internal load, twice the external load, could carry both internal and external at the same time (doubling the combat load of the He111) and do it at a faster speed, a faster cruising speed, and with a cheaper design. It was simply... "better".



Have to disagree, especially about bombload. Most books list the Ju 88 as with 3000kg, but was rather an exception than the rule. The problem with the 88 was that it's bomb bay was even smaller, and very limited with the size of bombs : the maximum it could carry internally was 1400 kg, and only up to 28 x 50 or 20x 70kg bomblets. In addition on external carriers it could carry four 250 kg bomb, for a max of 2400kg. The max range in this config was 1260 km; the He 111 H-16 had ca 1900km with 2500kg full load, though the H-16 had about 25% more internal fuel, so they were probably comparable.

That's for the early model A-1 of 1939/40, the A-4 boosted that to 3000kg, but because of the limitation of the bomb bay, this had to be carried externally on 2 x ETC 500, 1000 or 2000 racks, or in some mixed manner.(Similiarly, the He 111H-11 boosted bombload bombload to 3000kg, again in a mixed manner.) Since any decent bomb had to be carried externally, so much for the extra speed (I guess with external loadout it wasn't any faster than the He 111) unless we speak of a light load of small bombs for close support role.

In brief there's simply no way the a Ju 88 from the comparable timeframe would carry more bombs than a He 111; it can be assumed that most of the time they carried about as much on normal missions, the speed difference wasn't great, if any taking into account the Ju 88's external loads, and both were pretty well armored. The plus for the Ju 88 was it's excellent, almost fighter-like manouveribility, and the possibility to dive bomb. The He 111 otoh was more heavily armed, and was easy to fly on one engine, generally carrying more of more potent bombs (8x 250 kg vs. 4x250kgs). In a sense, the Ju 88 was more of a multirole tactical bomber, whereas the He 111 was a very nice, traditional medium level bomber.
The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site
http://www.kurfurst.org

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
He-111 nose turret?
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2005, 10:45:53 AM »
To get some idea about the 111's range they went on raids from Norway to Icelands. Ju 88's were also seen I belive, but not sure if they carried ordnance.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Staga

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5334
      • http://www.nohomersclub.com/
He-111 nose turret?
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2005, 05:30:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Cute ;)

Always liked the elegant lines of the 111.

Reminds me a bit of.....the Spitfire :D


Guess who copied who; especially with wings...