Author Topic: Hey, REALLY need to worry about SOMETHING?  (Read 2362 times)

Offline Sandman

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Hey, REALLY need to worry about SOMETHING?
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2001, 04:50:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler:
Toad
your 1st post should read:

April 7, 1999
Thanks to the Clinton Administration,
China currently has the capability to strike U.S. cities with its force of approximately 20 long-range Dong Feng-5 missiles, each armed with a 4- to 5-megaton thermonuclear warhead.... Additionally, its sea-based force (currently only one Xia submarine armed with 12 medium-range ballistic missiles) does not pose a credible threat to either Moscow or Washington.

I'll bite. How is this Clinton's fault?
sand

Offline Dowding

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Hey, REALLY need to worry about SOMETHING?
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2001, 04:56:00 PM »
Fd-ski - Stalin was planning to push the big shiny red button, according to certain historians. He was quite insane towards the end of his life.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline qts

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« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2001, 05:07:00 PM »
China is a major threat to world peace. Don't forget that it has the population to survive  a major nuclear strike. They could lose 500 MILLION people without blinking. However, their targets are likely to be Mongolia, Russia, and India. India too can take a 500 million population loss without blinking. Kashmir is a likely flashpoint.

The US is right to go for NMD.

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2001, 06:58:00 PM »
Hehe... that's funny. China is a threat because there are a lot of them. And then they are also human rights violators because they try to control their population.
sand

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2001, 07:17:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM:


I'll bite. How is this Clinton's fault?

Here you go, sorry I didn't retype it myself:
In 1994 Bernard Schwartz, CEO of Loral Aerospace, went to China with
Commerce Secretary Ron Brown.  Bernard Schwartz, by co-incidence, also
donated just over a million dollars to the DNC.  When Mr. Schwartz flew to
China he hoped to make a sale or two, perhaps to offset the large DNC
donation checks he had just written.  His company, Loral, makes some
pretty high tech equipment, so the China - low-tech - market had great
appeal. For example, Loral manufactures satellites, radars, global
navigation and world wide secure communications systems.  All the fine
things a "wannabe" super-power would desire.

In 1994, just prior to traveling with Brown, Mr. Schwartz had his LORAL
staff prepare a shopping list for the Chinese and Ron Brown.  This list,
complete with very big pictures, would make LORAL's large ticket items
easier to understand and digest at Ron Brown's (executive) level.
However, the same list would also make anyone familiar with military
equipment go bananas.

On that day Ron Brown stopped being Secretary of Commerce and started his
new career as an international arms dealer.  The items LORAL carried to
the meeting with Ron Brown resemble a JANE'S Defense catalog of high tech
weapons.  Some of the Loral suggested "red" ticket items up for sale
included "Airborne Reconnaissance Cameras, Weapon Delivery, Target
Acquisition, Missile Guidance, Shipboard Target Acquisition, Radar
Warning, Missile Warning, RF Jamming, IR Jamming..." and so on.

Please note - Anything that starts with "weapon", "missile" or "target
acquisition" does NOT qualify as a civilian application.

The result of the 1994 China trade trip?

Today, China is using Loral satellites to perform all weather bombing
using a "western" based navigation system in their modified Russia SU-27
FLANKER jet fighters.  These navigation aids were originally sold to China
under the condition they would be used on "civilian" airliners.  Of
course, now that the satellites are under PRC control, their civilian
operation has been shifted slightly.  The SU-27s are made in Russia (soon
to be copied by license in China) and they are not going to complain about
the navigation gear being tuned to Schwartz's satellites.  Thus, the next
bombs to fall in anger from a PLA warplane will come courtesy (and with
great accuracy) via the USA.

Another US, high-tech, upgrade for the benefit of China's Generals and
Commissars is their new secure military communication system.  China is
now using US built secure encoding systems to protect their military
satellite and global communications.  This 21st century system is a
decades leap forward for the Chinese, who previously depended on former
Soviet built analog scramblers to protect their highest military orders.
The great leap forward for the PRC did not come at the end of years of
costly R&D followed by careful deployment. Instead, the Princes in Beijing
can now issue nuclear launch code orders using C4 (Command, Control,
Communications, and Computers) systems that rival the best in the free
west. Basically, this is because their system was built in the free west.

So who is responsible for this?  A dead Ron Brown?  A very much richer
Bernard Schwartz?

We have Bill Clinton to thank for arming the Chinese this time around.
Bill Clinton personally tasked Bernard Schwartz on a "PRESIDENTIAL
BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT MISSION" for Red China. Schwartz actually carried
papers of authorization from his friend Bill with him to China.  Thus, it
comes as no surprise that once in China, Schwartz met with Shen Rong-Jun,
Vice Minister for COSTIND (Commission of Science, Technology, & Industry
for National Defense).  I do not know if Rong-Jun is related to Wang Jun,
the Chinese arms dealer who paid his way into the White House at about the
same time.  However, I do know that COSTIND is an arm of the People's
Liberation Army; note the ND stands for "National Defense".  In the end,
Rong-Jun and Wang Jun were really working for the same boss... The
People's Liberation Army.

Additional proof of who authorized the military exports to China comes not
from a SOFTWAR FOIA but from a recently published GAO report on US weapons
exports to China.  The GAO published a report on May 7, NSAID-98-171,
which states "According to State (Department) officials, since 1990, 11
Presidential waivers have been issued removing export restrictions on 21
satellite projects.  Presidential waivers were also granted to permit the
export of encryption equipment controlled on the Munitions List".  

Thus, Bill Clinton determined it was in our national interest to arm Red
China.  He wrote the waivers.  He authorized the sales...  He took the
donations.

===============================

Notice Ron Brown ain't around anymore....
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2001, 10:07:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM:
I'll say it again. We are a greater threat to China than they are to us.

If the US had 50,000 nuclear warheads and China had just 1, China would STILL be a far greater threat to World Peace than the US.


 
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM:
Hehe... that's funny. China is a threat because there are a lot of them. And then they are also human rights violators because they try to control their population.

Nope. They are currently Human Rights Violators because of the way they control their population.

Heres a few examples from that well-known right-wing organization Human Rights Watch   :)

Tortue of Prisoners
Crackdown on Falun Gong
Controls on the Internet
Violations of workers rights
Hong Kong (Special Autonomous Region)
Detained China Scholars

Then there's that old stuff, like running over protesters in Tianamen Square with tanks.

But then you can probably excuse all that.   :)

[ 07-18-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2001, 07:57:00 AM »
Quote
If the US had 50,000 nuclear warheads and China had just 1, China would STILL be a far greater threat to World Peace than the US.

That is perception, not fact. A fight with China is ours to start. China has absolutely nothing to gain by lobbing a nuke in our direction. They are not stupid. They know the cost. Their population is not a threat to us. What are they going to do, boat them over? Hell, the "strongest country in the world" took six entire months to position it's military in the middle east before commencing Desert Storm. The United States can engage or disengage at will with China. Of course, some will ask, "What about Taiwan?" I don't give a rat's bellybutton about Taiwan and I think it would be a complete waste to lose as much as a single American serviceman's life defending it. We cannot win in a conflict with China. Likewise, China can not win in a conflict with the United States. No matter the outcome, we all lose.

World Peace? What a riot. There has never been World Peace and there never will... EVER.

As for China's human rights issues... I think we have enough problems in our own backyard to fix before we start pointing fingers.

[ 07-19-2001: Message edited by: Sandman_SBM ]
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2001, 09:18:00 AM »
If so, then your previous comment would also be perception and not fact. There... we both posted perceptions. Yours of no less and no more value than mine; the course of history will eventually decide who was closer to the truth.

I feel confident.  :)

Like Russia, China has nothing we need to fight over to get. Why would we fight them?

Taiwan? Hardly. I'm certainly not going to allow my sons to go and "fight for Taiwan". I doubt very many other parents would either. OTOH, I'd sell them whatever "non-cutting edge" technology they wanted to defend themselves. For example, I'd sell them all the F-16's they want and not a single F-22. Then when it's "nut-cutting time" they themselves can decide what their lifestyle is worth.

China won't lob a nuke at us. They'll probably extort us by threatening to lob a nuke at us. Then we either give in to the "demand du jour" (likely) or we tell them to "take their best shot" and let the chips fall (unlikely).

Basically these are the tactics that worked so well for Adolph before he actually sent the troops into combat in Poland. Of course, it'll be a bit higher stakes than that period.

US human rights violations? LOL. Nice misdirect.

YOU bring it up and then try the old "hey, presto! look over there!" trick.

Yeah, the US has some problem areas in Human Rights. NOTHING, however, like the problems that the government of China inflicts on its people. You know it too.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Krusher

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« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2001, 10:23:00 AM »
sandman wrote:
Of course, some will ask, "What about Taiwan?" I don't give a rat's bellybutton about Taiwan and I think it would be a complete waste to lose as much as a single American serviceman's life defending it. We cannot win in a conflict with China. Likewise, China can not win in a conflict with the United States. No matter the outcome, we all lose.
--------------------------------------

a very large chunk of our economy is based on computers. American companies have spent BILLIONS on chip factories in Taiwan.

Offline Nifty

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« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2001, 10:33:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM:
China has absolutely nothing to gain by lobbing a nuke in our direction. They are not stupid. They know the cost.

Neither are we, or Russia, or any other country for that matter.  I'm pretty sure everyone knows once the nukes start flying, a whole helluva lot of humans are dying.  As in probably upwards of 80-90%, if not all of us.

Anyways, I'm against developing the ABMs.  It won't help much IF a full scale launch came anyways.  A few would hit anyways, and millions would die in the volley.  Then billions would die as the retalitory strikes were launched.  I just hope if it happens, I'm near an impact point.  I'd rather go quick and be incinerated, than die slowly from radiation poisoning...

As for the argument of the ABM being for the rogue nation that'd lob one or two...  Ok, let's assume that's true.  You put the ABM in place.  You think that rogue nation would then lob them at us?  Nope, they'd ferry it over, set it up, then detonate it here.  No ABM system can stop that.
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Offline Nifty

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« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2001, 10:36:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusher:
a very large chunk of our economy is based on computers. American companies have spent BILLIONS on chip factories in Taiwan.

Why do you think China is so interested in having the little country back?  Because of principle?  I don't think so.  What good is Taiwan to China if the chip factories get destroyed?  If they had the factories, that's billions of US $$$ going to China instead of Taiwan.
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Offline Eagler

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« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2001, 10:53:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nifty:


Why do you think China is so interested in having the little country back?  Because of principle?  I don't think so.  What good is Taiwan to China if the chip factories get destroyed?  If they had the factories, that's billions of US $$$ going to China instead of Taiwan.

Whoever controls the motherboards control the world  :)

A small self destruct capacitor on the pent 7 and amd "firebird" motherboards set to pop at midnight 01/01/2015. Far fetched??
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Offline Nifty

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« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2001, 11:01:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler:


Whoever controls the motherboards control the world   :)

A small self destruct capacitor on the pent 7 and amd "firebird" motherboards set to pop at midnight 01/01/2015. Far fetched??

and on 1/2/2015 the bombs would be launched!!! (they used old mo-bos...   ;) )
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Offline Krusher

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« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2001, 11:09:00 AM »
eagler wrote:
Whoever controls the motherboards control the world

--------------------------

hehehe remember the virus that was imbedded in a printer shipped to iraq right before the start of the air war  :)

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2001, 12:35:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad:
If so, then your previous comment would also be perception and not fact. There... we both posted perceptions. Yours of no less and no more value than mine; the course of history will eventually decide who was closer to the truth.

I feel confident.    :)

Your're fooling yourself... but that's okay. It's the typical American perception that we can do no wrong.


 
Quote
Like Russia, China has nothing we need to fight over to get. Why would we fight them?

Exactly my question. As I stated before, we can engage and disengage at will with China. Why do we insist on poking them in the eye with this issue of Taiwan? Computers? Even if every computer on the planet were made in Taiwan, they would still need the purchasing power of the United States. Can't sell 'em if you don't have a buyer.

 
Quote
Taiwan? Hardly. I'm certainly not going to allow my sons to go and "fight for Taiwan". I doubt very many other parents would either. OTOH, I'd sell them whatever "non-cutting edge" technology they wanted to defend themselves. For example, I'd sell them all the F-16's they want and not a single F-22. Then when it's "nut-cutting time" they themselves can decide what their lifestyle is worth.

Really? President Bush has pledged to defend Taiwan. Hasn't he? Of course, the U.S. could circumvent the law by sending mercenaries to Taiwan in the same way that we send them to South America.

 
Quote
China won't lob a nuke at us. They'll probably extort us by threatening to lob a nuke at us. Then we either give in to the "demand du jour" (likely) or we tell them to "take their best shot" and let the chips fall (unlikely).

Right... extortion. roadkill. We have 2000 ICBMs AND a military capable of projecting power across the oceans. China cannot compete, population or not.

 
Quote
Basically these are the tactics that worked so well for Adolph before he actually sent the troops into combat in Poland. Of course, it'll be a bit higher stakes than that period.

China is not Nazi Germany and the United States is not Poland. Next!

 
Quote
US human rights violations? LOL. Nice misdirect.

YOU bring it up and then try the old "hey, presto! look over there!" trick.

Yeah, the US has some problem areas in Human Rights. NOTHING, however, like the problems that the government of China inflicts on its people. You know it too.

Actually, I didn't bring up the subject but human rights are often argued as a reason to be hostile towards China. I think it's hypocritical of us to point at China's "large" problem while ignoring our own "smaller" problems.

[ 07-19-2001: Message edited by: Sandman_SBM ]
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