Author Topic: Hey, REALLY need to worry about SOMETHING?  (Read 2359 times)

Offline Toad

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Hey, REALLY need to worry about SOMETHING?
« on: July 17, 2001, 04:28:00 PM »
This site is for all of you folks that figure Armageddon is just around the corner because the US is still researching missile/warhead interception techniques. (You know they're working on an airborne laser simultaneously, right?)

If you can temporarily rid yourself of the overwhelming fear that the always irrational, warmongering US is about to nuke SOMEBODY, we just don't know who, read this.

I suggest you read the whole thing, it presents a pretty balanced view. These are just tidbits to get you interested.

Then see how you feel.
 http://www.ceip.org/programs/npp/brief28.htm

"Carnegie Endowment for International Peace
NON-PROLIFERATION

April 7, 1999  

China currently has the capability to strike U.S. cities with its force of approximately 20 long-range Dong Feng-5 missiles, each armed with a 4- to 5-megaton thermonuclear warhead.... Additionally, its sea-based force (currently only one Xia submarine armed with 12 medium-range ballistic missiles) does not pose a credible threat to either Moscow or Washington.


By 2010, China hopes to have completed an upgrade of its forces. The planned improvements include:

ICBMs: The replacement of the aging force of DF-5's (and potentially the DF-4's) with two new missiles.

DF-31: a solid-fueled, road-mobile missile with an 8,000 km range. Though the missile has yet to be flight tested, the engine has been tested several times since the 1980s and could be fielded as early as 2000 to 2002.
 
DF-41: a solid-fueled, road-mobile missile with a 12,000 km range. This missile is expected to be deployed near 2010, as the DF-5 leaves service. Some of the newer DF-5's may remain in service past this date. (Reports indicate that 6 DF-5's were produced at Wanyuan in 1998 and that 2 more are expected before the closure of the production facility.)

Exact deployment numbers are unknown, but some experts estimate that China could field between 50-70 MIRVed, solid-fueled ICBMs (DF-31s and DF-41s) by 2010, both mobile and in hardened silos, equipped with various penetration aids to defeat missile defenses.

SLBMs: While China plans to deploy 4-6 of its second generation submarines (the 09-4) it is likely that no more than three will actually be deployed by 2010. Each submarine could be armed with 12 JL-2 SLBMs, with a range of 8,000 km and potential MIRV capability. The JL-2 is based on the DF-31 missile and has been under development since the 1980s.

Strategic Bombers: The H-6 is China's current medium-range bomber. Based on the Soviet Tu-16 Badger of 1950s vintage, it has a range of 3,000 km. While the Chinese air force flight-tested a more modern bomber, the H-7, in 1988, most experts believe that it will not have a nuclear role and that only 20 will be built. It is unlikely that China will invest substantial resources in it's airborne nuclear capability unless it is able to purchase the T-22M Backfire from Russia (although China is reportedly developing an air launched cruise missile).

Given the record, this is where the threat to World Peace lies, IMO.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2001, 05:17:00 PM »
And building a semi-functional NMD system, provoking them into building more missles serves world peace how?
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2001, 05:55:00 PM »
Not built yet, is it? Cart before the horse, perhaps?

What has been done so far had been funded in PREVIOUS budgets... check the budgets for the 8 years PRIOR to 2001. Guess who funded the research up to the present. That's right...

The 2001 budgeted amount is $1,740 millions. In 2000 it was $950 millions and in prior years it totaled $4,717 millions.

The fiscal year 2001 budget will be the first to include production funding for national missile defense. Prior to this it has all been research and testing.

"Provoke them into building more missiles"?  

Come on. China is going to build their new force whether or not we build NMD. Loral and Hughes sold them the technology to make them real accurate too. Guess who approved the technology transfer? Yes, right again. Same as the answer to the budget question above. Maybe the little light bulb above the head went on somewhere?

It's not just China either. Consider North Korea:
 http://www.house.gov/international_relations/nkag/report.htm


I.    Do the North Korean weapons of mass destruction (WMD) programs pose a greater threat to U.S. security than five years ago?

    North Korea's WMD programs pose a major threat to the United States and its allies...

Unlike five years ago, North Korea can now strike the United States with a missile that could deliver high explosive, chemical, biological, or possibly nuclear weapons. Currently, the United States is unable to defend against this threat."

So NOT building an NMD preserves World Peace how?

NMD would never be used if no one fired an offensive missile, would it?

You may be real comfortable with the Chinese and North Koreans having this capability but I'm not.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Gh0stFT

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« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2001, 06:38:00 PM »
well if you ask me, building an NMD or not is irrelevant, if one nation pushes the button its all over for us on the planet earth. <Game over>

It could prevent attacks from terrorists maybe, tho   ....maybe not, who knows.
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Offline Sandman

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« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2001, 07:11:00 PM »
I think we are a far larger threat to China than they are to us.
sand

Offline Nash

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« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2001, 09:56:00 PM »
I had all but forgotten about the threat of nuclear war since Reagan. Isn't this great?

Offline Toad

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« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2001, 10:40:00 PM »
LOL, Nash... if there's a threat, it isn't from us.

Lot of people in here pretending bad people don't exist in the world anymore though.  ;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline blur

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« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2001, 07:00:00 AM »
Toad, I’m behind you one hundred percent on this.

In fact I’d like to take this one step further; let’s do a preemptive nuclear strike on those rice eatin’ rat-bastards.

I even have our war cry:

NUKE THE FETUSES!!!   :mad:

Offline fd ski

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« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2001, 07:19:00 AM »
If Stalin didn't push the red button, i doubt anyone will.

Right now balance exists because:
i shoot = he shoots = everyone dies

If countries start building "shields" it will become:
i shoot = he shoots = hopefully i intercept and only his people die

which will quickly lead to:

i shoot so many whoopee missiles that even if they all hit outside of their targets nuclear winter follows = everyone dies

China has a long long history of paranoia - very much like Russia. We did after all break into it's shell and stirred up the insides in the name of our western principles, didn't we ?
But China never been much of an invader, even in it's communist times. Their history points to one thing - they want to be left the hell alone - something that most westerners can't understand...

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2001, 07:47:00 AM »
Toad
your 1st post should read:

April 7, 1999
Thanks to the Clinton Administration,
China currently has the capability to strike U.S. cities with its force of approximately 20 long-range Dong Feng-5 missiles, each armed with a 4- to 5-megaton thermonuclear warhead.... Additionally, its sea-based force (currently only one Xia submarine armed with 12 medium-range ballistic missiles) does not pose a credible threat to either Moscow or Washington.
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Offline StSanta

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« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2001, 09:35:00 AM »
Heh eagler, and I'd add another line:

"and thanks to the bush family, they now have a reason to open fire"

 :D

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2001, 10:05:00 AM »
Oops, they already have "Great Treck-5"! Last time I checked - they had only Great Treck-3.

India will built it's own missile park in nearest 10 years too.

Other countries will develop nukes and missiles in nearest future.

Can anyone imagine a full-scale war between India and Pakistan now, when they both have nukes and means of delivery?

Anyone having a full-scale ABM coverage over their country will be a serious threat to peace.

And I have to say it again: a massive launch from ANY side will cause ALL other nuclear-capable countries to react in a simultaneous massive launch. For example: if China will launch ICBMS at the US - Russian ICBMS will go off immediately.

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2001, 02:25:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda:
if China will launch ICBMS at the US - Russian ICBMS will go off immediately.

 Why?
 miko

Offline Toad

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« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2001, 03:03:00 PM »
This page is a slow loader but it shows the 34 countries that have ballistic missile capability.

 http://www.ceip.org/files/projects/npp/resources/ballisticmissilechart.htm


Here's the "good" news though... I guess"

"Only 11 nations have missiles with ranges over 1000 km; all the rest have only short-range, Scud-type missiles. Only 8 <!> nations have been able to devleop nuclear weapons that could be fitted as warheads on these missiles."


Take a look and see how safe things are around the globe. No possible threats to world peace in that list, no sir!

... and the people researching a shield are the crazy ones.

Yeah, right.   :D

[ 07-18-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2001, 04:47:00 PM »
So... the United States has approximately 10,500 nuclear warheads (2,000 ICBM).

China has 410 (128 ICBM).

Russia has approximately 20,000 (~3,000 ICBM).

I'll say it again. We are a greater threat to China than they are to us.
sand