Author Topic: Corporal punishment - a discussion  (Read 460 times)

Offline Tarmac

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Corporal punishment - a discussion
« on: December 16, 2005, 03:34:13 PM »
I don't usually start these kinds of discussions, but I've got a cold on a Friday and another thread got me thinking about corporal punishment.  

Here's my question: Where did society get the idea that progress means moving away from corporal punishment?

I'm not going to say that corporal punishment is the cure-all for society's problems, but I am curious as to why it is not even an option, legally speaking, anymore.  Compared to the current system of imprisonment, it does have some apparent advantages.  Here's what I've come up with sitting in front of the computer in the last few minutes:

1) Corporal punishment is violent, and the lack of violence in society equals progress.  I have issues with this because society is inherently violent.  Whether your society functions through violence or the threat of violence makes little difference.  Western societies have evolved to the point that the threat of violence is sufficient to control people.  Society will do what is necessary to control you -- if you go along peacefully, great, if not you'll get restrained, beaten, shot, tasered, or whatever until you are under control.  Of course, there is a difference between lawful violence - that which is sanctioned by law and applied relatively even-handeddly -- and indiscriminate violence prevalent in mob rule or vigilante justice.  But western society is kidding itself if it believes that its "civilization" is not enforced through violence.

2)  Corporal punishment is cruel and unusual.    Of course this depends on society's definition of "cruel and unusual."  Where did we get the idea that beating a man is cruel or unusual, while locking him in a small room with little opportunity to make right for his crimes, or prepare to do right in the future is somehow not cruel or unusual?  For as long as man has been around, he has understood violence.  Don't stick your hand in a fire, or it will hurt.  Don't slam your hand in a door -- it hurts.  Don't steal from someone - it hurts when they catch you.  These concepts definately are not unusual.  What is unusual is the idea that man can be confined to a cage for years on end, with no purpose other than watching the calendar tick by the days.  
       
     I can begin to answer my own question, historically speaking: Back in the day some guy got the idea that men could be locked away to do penance for their crimes -- in a "penitentiary."  Ok, that's a decent idea, but that has been lost on modern societies (at least American society) that makes little effort to get its criminals to do penance for their crime.  

Now, going back to my criminal justice classes, punishment serves four purposes in society: retribution, restitution, incapacitation, and deterrence.  How are these purposes served by corporal punishment, as opposed to imprisonment?
--Retribution.  Served equally by both corporal punishment and imprisonment, but it's relative.  Either way it sucks for the convicted, but which sucks more is of course judged by each person individually.  
--Restitution.  Neither of these punishments makes restitution to society or to the victims of the crime.  However, imprisonment is a long term drain on society's resources, which causes society to suffer by diverting resources from other, more beneficial purposes.  You can argue that prison work programs are a positive for society, but these are rare enough that imprisonment is still a net drain on society's resources.  
--Incapacitation.  Refers to the idea of removing the threat posed by the criminal from society.  Imprisonment has the advantage here, as corporal punishment does not remove the criminal from society beyond the length of time it takes the person to lick their wounds.  
--Deterrence.  Both punishment ideas have merits from this aspect.  Nobody wants to get his bellybutton beat.  Nobody wants to lose years of his life living in a crappy room.  Both are pretty good deterrents to a guy like me, but since I don't understand criminals particularly well, I can't comment on which has greater deterrent effect.  

Of course, for any punishment to work it has to be applied uniformly (no bias), swiftly (to associate the punishment with the crime), and must be of appropriate scope.  There's no reason that courts couldn't hand out corporal punishment the same as they hand out incarceration now.

I've already talked to much, and most of the ADHD folks here won't bother to read all of that, but there's a lot more to say about the topic.  

   Sooo... where do you, and your society, get your views on corporal punishment?

Offline Skuzzy

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Corporal punishment - a discussion
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2005, 03:40:12 PM »
I think criminals can be reformed before they become criminals.  After the fact, screw em.  I have no sympathy for them.
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Offline Tarmac

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Corporal punishment - a discussion
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2005, 03:49:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy
I think criminals can be reformed before they become criminals.  After the fact, screw em.  I have no sympathy for them.


A fair enough view, and one that I once held.  It's easy to say when you're talking about "criminals" as a vague group.  But when you have to look a man in the eye and tell him you're locking him up, probably for years, it's often a totally different situation.  I don't enjoy it, but I know that it is necessary so I do it.

It's also a totally diffent situation when it's someone you know.  My cousin spent two years in prison for armed robbery - at 18, he carjacked a newspaper guy while high/drunk with his friends.  Nobody in my family ever said that he should not pay for his crime -- thank God nobody was hurt.  We were all fortunate in that he had access to a small library in prison, and had the motivation to start to learn a skill -- computers -- by maintaining the few PC's in the prison library.  He got out, took some computer classes, got his GED, and started an ISP (since nobody would hire a convicted felon), and has since moved on in the IT world.    

My point is, there is hope for some people, and it's easy to forget that until it happens to you or someone you love.

Offline Yeager

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Corporal punishment - a discussion
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2005, 03:53:02 PM »
When I was in Jr High, the Principle had a baseball bat that had been plained flat like a board and had 1/2" holes drilled across the flat surface to allow air to pass through (to reduce air resistance and to increase velocity on its unstoppable arc towards the soft tissue on the buttocks).  It was a genuine two fisted mass complicator of youthful bliss.....

I was smart enough to evade its crippling blow but several friends were reformed by its devastating impact.   I think we had only one guy in the entire school that went on to a life of crime and punishment.  Most learned about consequences by way of that principle, and his plained basball bat.

By the time I got into High School the state had outlawed corporal punishment.  Im sure we as a society are not better off in the absence of corporal punishment.
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Offline Skuzzy

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Corporal punishment - a discussion
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2005, 04:00:54 PM »
Police came to my house one night looking for my brother.  I did not ask what he had done, but told them where he could be found.

That was 20 years (or so) ago, and I do not have a clue wher he is at today.  He might be in jail.  He might have been executed.  I just do not know, nor do I care.  He made his bed, he can lie in it.

I am not nor will I be held responsible for the actions of others.

And I agree with Yeager as well.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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Corporal punishment - a discussion
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2005, 04:36:04 PM »
I always wondered why capital punishment or locking in stocks or other methods were outlawed under the amendment banning "Cruel and unusual punishment"

While locking a prisoner in stocks in the town square could be considered cruel, it was at one time certainly not unusual.

If the amendment said "Cruel or unusual" I can see how the legal minds made the decision.
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Offline Silat

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Corporal punishment - a discussion
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2005, 04:36:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
When I was in Jr High, the Principle had a baseball bat that had been plained flat like a board and had 1/2" holes drilled across the flat surface to allow air to pass through (to reduce air resistance and to increase velocity on its unstoppable arc towards the soft tissue on the buttocks).  It was a genuine two fisted mass complicator of youthful bliss.....

I was smart enough to evade its crippling blow but several friends were reformed by its devastating impact.   I think we had only one guy in the entire school that went on to a life of crime and punishment.  Most learned about consequences by way of that principle, and his plained basball bat.

By the time I got into High School the state had outlawed corporal punishment.  Im sure we as a society are not better off in the absence of corporal punishment.


I dont know the answer to the corporal punishment question but I also grew up when the principal had a big paddle and used it. And without digging up statistics I am confident that there were just as many criminals made who were hit as not.
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Offline Skuzzy

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Corporal punishment - a discussion
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2005, 04:40:14 PM »
Those that became criminals probably slid past the paddlings Silat.  :D

We use to have 'licks' championships every year where I went to school.  I was 8th grade champion, and runner-up for 9th grade and see how I turned out?
:rofl
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Offline Silat

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Corporal punishment - a discussion
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2005, 04:46:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skuzzy
Those that became criminals probably slid past the paddlings Silat.  :D

We use to have 'licks' championships every year where I went to school.  I was 8th grade champion, and runner-up for 9th grade and see how I turned out?
:rofl


Using you as an example skews the whole study :)
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Offline Rolex

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Corporal punishment - a discussion
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2005, 04:49:05 PM »
I believe in corporal punishment. If the actions of a child deserve corporal punishment, then I say call the workplace of both parents and announce to whomever answers the phone that the parents are to be at the school within one hour, and their behinds are going to be paddled when they get there.

Let's throw a little shame and embarrassment into the mix and see what happens.

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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Corporal punishment - a discussion
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2005, 04:51:02 PM »
Where I think imprisonment fails as a punishment is there is no support system after release to ease former inmates back into society as productive people (especially when they may not have been such a person to start with, and dont know how to be).  Imprisonment is supposed to be rehabilitation, not just punishment.  

Some people have a close family, strong support, and a way to get a job and earn a living and get on their feet without having to face the constant rejection that comes from being an ex-convict.  Many of those in jail DONT have that support, and need an artificial system that serves the same purpose.  Prison should be a chance for forced re-education and  training, and the after prison support system a way to provide real world experience and references.  Many private systems already exist to help ex-convicts readjust and get jobs, and could be expanded with a little help.

Corporal punishment needs to have a place too.  We've gone too far down the "positive reinforcement" road, and we are suffering a breakdown from a lack of discipline structure in our society. I'm not sure it has much effect at the adult level, but used sparingly it has a great deal of effect when we are younger.  Again, there has to be a balance, you cant get carried away with it or you lose the purpose of the punishment and it just becomes violence.  Negative and positive reinforcement used in conjunction with each other provide structured discipline that gives clear punishments for doing wrong and clear rewards for doing right.  Combine that with a true rehabilitory criminal justice system (when it can be applied, there are obviously some criminals who are incorrigable), and I dont think we would have near the rate of repeat offenders or long term jail residents that we do today.  

Our prison system is run on politics and has nothing to do with rehabilitating criminals, except for those few who have the external support system already in place (family) and a desire or drive to better themselves.  There is nothing in the current system that encourages them to become anything more than what they are, and indeed tells them that for the most part, they will never BE anything more than what they are now.

Offline mora

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Corporal punishment - a discussion
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2005, 04:52:59 PM »
If corporal punishment is allowed in schools, then it's a bit contradictory that it's illegal everywhere else. It's illegal for the police to beat criminals, it's illegal to beat your spouse, and it's even illegal to beat your child in many places.

When it's illegal and morally wrong to physically abuse other people, why should it be allowed in schools of all places?

I'm not saying that it would always be bad thing, like in the example that came up in the other thread. I'm sure it's an useful tool, but it's just morally wrong IMO. My argument is the same as of those who oppose gay marriage.

Offline Blooz

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Corporal punishment - a discussion
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2005, 04:57:13 PM »
Two kinds of people:

Those that see things black and white.

Those that see shades of grey.

Today there is no good or bad. It's someone elses fault or something wrong somewhere else. Nobody is really guilty of anything anymore.

Makes me sick.

If it was my way the trees, light poles and telephone poles would be full of swinging ex- death row inmates. Not in twenty years...no sir...today!
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Offline Skuzzy

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Corporal punishment - a discussion
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2005, 04:59:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Silat
Using you as an example skews the whole study :)
Ya think? LOL!
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Offline Tarmac

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Corporal punishment - a discussion
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2005, 05:02:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mora
If corporal punishment is allowed in schools, then it's a bit contradictory that it's illegal everywhere else. It's illegal for the police to beat criminals, it's illegal to beat your spouse, and it's even illegal to beat your child in many places.

When it's illegal and morally wrong to physically abuse other people, why should it be allowed in schools of all places?

I'm not saying that it would always be bad thing, like in the example that came up in the other thread. I'm sure it's an useful tool, but it's just morally wrong IMO. My argument is the same as of those who oppose gay marriage.


The difference is that corporal punishment would be subject to rule of law and due process.  When you talk about beating your spouse, police beating criminals, and beating your child, you are not talking about the rule of law and due process, you're talking about vigilantism.  I agree that vigilantism has little place in society.  Beating your wife is not corporal punishment, it's assault.  Police beating a suspect who has not been proven guilty is excessive force.  Beating your child is child abuse.  Corporal punishment is something totally different, even though the means are similar.