Gas on the 51

[Max]

Originally posted by Bodhi


As for range on the 20 / 30 mm being further than a .50, I find it hard to believe.

I've just finished a paperback book - "Tomlin's Crew" by J.W. Smallwood (a good read if you can find it) Smallwood was a bombadier/waist gunner on a B-17 crew that got shot down in '44. He states that the 50 cals onboard the B-17 were useless at more than 1000 yds while the 20 mm cannons on the 109's and 190's were considered lethal at less than 1600 yds.

It's interesting to note that the preferred merge used by the Luftwaffe on the B-17 and Liborator strike forces was a head on shot followed by a climb, loopover and dive, followed by another attack at the underbelly. This was usually done in pairs who seperated after the HO.

Max

[Kweassa]

I've just finished a paperback book - "Tomlin's Crew" by J.W. Smallwood (a good read if you can find it) Smallwood was a bombadier/waist gunner on a B-17 crew that got shot down in '44. He states that the 50 cals onboard the B-17 were useless at more than 1000 yds while the 20 mm cannons on the 109's and 190's were considered lethal at less than 1600 yds.

It's interesting to note that the preferred merge used by the Luftwaffe on the B-17 and Liborator strike forces was a head on shot followed by a climb, loopover and dive, followed by another attack at the underbelly. This was usually done in pairs who seperated after the HO.

 Certainly interesting.

 I recall the ballistics discussions way back when the usual debates on gunnery ranges was once more heating the boards. My impression, according to the data people presented, was that basically any type of fired bullet (.50s.. 20mils.. 30mils.. etc etc) will retain potency to kill for a great range, much further than 1000 yards. Therefore, the real issue to be discussed is not the "possibility" of the long range shot, which clearly is possible, but rather the "probability" of it all, as circumstances would solely dictate whether a fired bullet will hit the mark or not.

 Not having the book, my take on Mr. Smallwood's comment is that it might be one of those examples of situation dictating the outcome - situational probability ruling over technical possibility. If Mr. Smallwood's comment is based on his own experiences as a waist gunner, then it would be reasonable to assume that it wasn't because the .50s weren't potent over 1000 yards, but rather due to the fact that defensive guns on bombers were generally very poor in accuracy. People just couldn't hit anything unless it was very close in range.

 However, an interceptor on an attack run might start "spraying" from long ranges, and it would be probable that the cannons fired from the interceptors would start striking its mark before the defensive gunners could land any kind of hits to the attacking fighters. After all, bombers flying slow and steady would be a relatively easier target to hit. Naturally, a bomber gunner might start to get the impression that their own defensive guns are inadequate, but the cannons on the interceptors were much more proficient at longer ranges.

[SirLoin]

I always said the spins/stall model in AH1 was way to easy..With AH2 it is much more complex(flight departure/spins) and much improved...

But i still wish it was even harder for spin recovery/stalls.

[Saxman]

Point of order: Not ALL .50 cal ammunition used by the US were slugs. Some were incindiaries (in other words, exploding rounds). Was watching something on the History Channel or whatever and that was what the P-51's primary ammunition was (incindiaries). IIRC they were also widely used by the USMC.

[Bodhi]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Are you saying the stall in the AH II P-38 is ridiculous, or that the stall in the real P-38 is ridiculous?

EVERYTHING I've read about the P-38 says that within a revolution or two, it will go nose down and recover with the yoke and rudders neutral. That will still get you killed knife fighting at 1500 feet. But a stall shouldn't be a problem at 10K, and maybe not too much at 5-7K.

Virgil,

Sure, if you set up a 38, and induce a spin, it is recoverable.  I disagree down below 10k but, I do not fly one, if I ever do, I am not going to get the chance to spin it, so that is a mute point.  What I am saying (and every combat pilot I have ever talked to who flew the 38 told me) is that in a fight, stalling the 38 uncoordinated, will result in a spin that very quickly goes flat and is unrecoverable.  The same goes for the 51, don't spin it.  It loses an insane amount of alt each revolution, and within a turn and a half or so, goes into an unrecoverable flat spin.  Corsair, the guys I have talked to about spinning the Corsair just laugh and say don't do it as it is almost unrecoverable.

Either way, the low speed characteristics need to be addressed so that the aircraft behave as they do in r/l.  It would end the arcade like low speed fights that develop in here.

[x0847Marine]

Originally posted by Saxman
Point of order: Not ALL .50 cal ammunition used by the US were slugs. Some were incindiaries (in other words, exploding rounds). Was watching something on the History Channel or whatever and that was what the P-51's primary ammunition was (incindiaries). IIRC they were also widely used by the USMC.

As stated by one of those old salts on the show, the 51 carried API rounds... thats Armor Piercing Incendiary, in reality a very different round than a "slug", which I assume is ball ammo.

Ball ammo, your typical NATO round, works great for infantry... it goes fast and has the ability to go through several people. API gets inside the armor, fragments, then catches fire.... kinda like a hollow point, but nastier.

The AH Pony gas thing... 50% + 2 DT's, drop 1 on take off, the other later.. works great to avoid burning a specific tank.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by CHECKERS
Karnak, Take your X-WING vs TIE Fighter sarcasm and stick it right up ur X$$ ! .....

You're the one who wants easy mode.  You advocate for dumbed down flight models and you take what you get.

[Ghosth]

Incendiary rounds are a whole different  animal than a HE 20mm round.

It doesn't explode, it will if it hits something perhaps start a fire.

On a WWII airplane with aluminum skin, unless it hits something like the engine, armour plate, or a solid strut it will punch right through.

Where a 20mm round will hit, & explode, doing 10x the damage.

[Glasses]

That's something the AH binary DM doesn't take into effect. The AH DM primarily gives priority to damage to those rounds that have higher muzzle velocity ie the Hispano and 50 cal, in real life to cause some damage you had to be close to a target to actually do some serious damage to a plane. While the  German 20mm didn't rely on its muzzle velocity to cause damage to  a target but the HE content it had. Like throwing a knife at someone or launching a grenade(20mm)

That's something the AH DM doens't take into account(Except for the hizookas)

AS to the P-51 in RL it was a Dog Yes a Dog a t slow speeds.Iin AH, it can do everything better, it can drop flaps pull hard into a turn don't bleed E and keep going like nothing has happened. It cannot be "suckered" into bleeding its E because it never does even with flaps extended. Even at slow speeds if you need to turn ever tighter you can just keep dropping flaps and It'll turn tighter and tighter, with no tendency at all to depart from controlled flight.

Simply enough the AH2 FM for the P-51 is extremely generous leaving it without any weaknesses to exploit.