It's official...

[Crumpp]

Yet the reports conclusion is not to clip the wings, doesn't make sense.

I think the big clue is the handling.  Sort of like AH LW planes now.  The numbers might be correct for performance.  I even think Kweassa's turn test concluded the Bf-109's were pretty competative for turn ability.  However the handling characteristics are degraded it is very difficult to fight the aircraft.

The report does comment that the stalling speed in increased in the turn.

That is how I interpret the reports conclusions and pilot comments.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Kev367th]

You got a date for the report?

Just noticed it is for a Mk V, doesn't say which type.
If it was an F V then of course the worry about lowering of max ceiling, loss of 160-200fpm climb would make sense.

However for an LF V these conscerns would be immaterial.

Would any of these points even be valid for later Merlin 66 spits?
Basically I don't think you can use it as a basis for saying clipped wings on later Spits wasn't or might not have been appropriate.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Crumpp
That is a good point.  They were certainly better than not clipping the wings to combat the FW-190.

However it is also a fact that Spitifire pilots using clipped wing aircraft did not feel they it made much of a difference when fighting FW-190's.   It was certainly improvement over a non-clipped wing but still unable to match the Focke Wulf.

It is also a fact that clipping the wings reduced the turn ability, raised the stall speed, lowered high altitude performance, degraded the handling characteristics, and detracted considerably from the fighting characteristics of the aircraft as this report concluded.
 

 

Clipping the wings was not a magical solution during the war nor should it be a magical solution in AH.

All the best,

Crumpp

The report refers to a Spit V.  We don't know what engine etc.  Where is it a 'fact' that pilots didn't feel like the clipped wing helped?  That sounds more like an opinion.  Some may have found that the case, but again, as a Spit XII fanatic, I haven't come across anyone who thought the clipped wing was a mistake on that bird.  Down low it made a difference.

As for the XVI in AH.  Maybe it's just me, but I'd suggest some of the Spit drivers go fly the new Spit IX.  That's my Spit favorite.  To me it's the smoothest of the Spits and the easiest to handle.  I have no 'fear' of mixing it up with XVIs or VIIIs down low in the IX.

As a clipped Spit fan, I hate to admit that, but the new IX is the best of the bunch in my opinion.

[Kev367th]

You beat me to it Dan, I just noticed it was a V.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Grits
The XVI out turns the VIII, look for the charts posted earlier this month.

Kev, I am not anti-Spit, I rather like them actually, but put aside your "RAF doesnt have a free '45 plane" Jihad for a second and tell me why the XVI should NOT be perked? It turns with a V, rolls just shy of a 190, accelerates like an La7, and climbs with a K-4. That sounds like a perk plane to me, regardless of year.

Any of the birds you compared it to perked?

[Crumpp]

That report refers to all clipped wing spits, the Spitfire Mk V, IX, and XII.

 

Clipping the wings was not a magical solution.  It had performance consequences.  Some good and some not so good.

The wing design does not change.

Again what data is AH using as Supermarine only guarantees within plus or minus 3 % of 322mph at SL and a maximum speed of 386mph for the Spitfire Mk XVI.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Kev367th]

Yes it does, but the pilot comments you have so far posted only refer to a Mk Vb, not even a low alt version of the V.
The IX is also not a low alt version.

I'll leave it up to Dan for the XII's.

Clipping the wings of a F based Spit i.e. F Vb, F IX would definately not be recommended (althoguh it did happen).
However I would suggest in the absence of anything to the contrary the situation may have been completely different on LF Spits, designed to fight at lower alts were clipped wings were intended for.

Wing design may not have changed, but the engines alt bands most certainly did.
Thats why the HF series usually had extended wings, something that was totally unsuitable for lower alts.

[Guppy35]

Safe to say the advantages outweighed the disadvantages?  Seems like it when you consider the XIIs all went clipped, and the XVIs did as well and that was in 44-45.

Again, in the realm of down low air combat it was an advantage.  Up high it was not.

Kind of like the VIIs that had their extended wing tips removed and regular wing tips added when they were used as normal fighters since the high alt threat was gone.



None of it would suggest the XVI should be perked however

[Crumpp]

Safe to say the advantages outweighed the disadvantages? Seems like it when you consider the XIIs all went clipped, and the XVIs did as well and that was in 44-45.

I think Guppy that was more a move of desperation to combat the FW190 down low.  Clipping the wings was better than not clipping the wings when dogfighting an FW-190 in a Spitifre.  It just was not a vast improvement nor was it a complete answer as the Spitfire pilots who fought the FW190 comment.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Crumpp
I think Guppy that was more a move of desperation to combat the FW190 down low.  Clipping the wings was better than not clipping the wings when dogfighting an FW-190 in a Spitifre.  It just was not a vast improvement nor was it a complete answer as the Spitfire pilots who fought the FW190 comment.

All the best,

Crumpp

I think that we can agree completley on, I don't actually think anyone suggested it was, just that it was an improvement.

I think its actually the combination of the clipped wings, tall tail and Merlin 66 that is making the difference ingame compared to what people are used to (F IX).

[Crumpp]

Wing design may not have changed, but the engines alt bands most certainly did.

Same thing happenend in the design of the Focke Wulf 190.  It gained the exact same amount of power that the  most powerful wartime Spitfire did and the 190 gained less weight.  Does the RAF posses special "flying fairy dust" or were the physics of aerodynamics changed just for the FW-190?

All the best,

Crumpp

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Same thing happenend in the design of the Focke Wulf 190.  It gained the exact same amount of power that the  most powerful wartime Spitfire did and the 190 gained less weight.  Does the RAF posses special "flying fairy dust" or were the physics of aerodynamics changed just for the FW-190?

All the best,

Crumpp

Naw just R.J.Mitchells superior design .

[Crumpp]

I think its actually the combination of the clipped wings, tall tail and Merlin 66 that is making the difference ingame compared to what people are used to (F IX).

It simply should not make that much of a difference.  

Supermarines performance specs say the Mk XVI should be good performer but far from superior.  It's LW conterparts should give it a good run for it's money.

Naw just R.J.Mitchells superior design

That is a matter of opinion.  How many world speed records did the Spitfire win?



All the best,

Crumpp

[Kev367th]

If you look at its K/D ratio it's not.

I think a similar comparison would be the early Mk I vs a late LF Vc, huge difference. Point being down low were the MA fights are the LF VIII, LF XVI are both streets ahead of the F IX (remembering our is an early IX i.e. a Mk V airframe with a Merlin 61). It wasn't until later the IX's and later got airframes specifically designed for the Merlin 60 series.

People are saying because theres so many of them in the MA it should be perked.

My point was if that happens, people will move sideways to the VIII, then that will get perked.

My suggestion is MORE not less options is the best way to counteract it.
i.e.
Re-instate the old V as an LF Vc, add the XII, unperk the XIV.
More choices, less XVI's in the air.


Most powerful wartime Spit -
F.21 - Griffon 61@ 2035HP, or Griffon 64 @ 2375HP, both 18lbs
Spit XIV - Griffon 61 2200HP @ 21lbs

Griffon 61/5/6 series were trialled up to 25lbs boost (2400HP+), but were never introduced at that level.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Crumpp
I think Guppy that was more a move of desperation to combat the FW190 down low.  Clipping the wings was better than not clipping the wings when dogfighting an FW-190 in a Spitifre.  It just was not a vast improvement nor was it a complete answer as the Spitfire pilots who fought the FW190 comment.

All the best,

Crumpp

LOL desperation seems a bit strong.  I KNOW you are a 190 junkie, just like I'm a Spit XII junkie, but I doubt it was desperation on anyone's part

That implies that any modification done to fill a need was desperate.  The XII was meant for down low, and would outperform any wartime Spit below 10K.  As it was put into service to combat the low alt 190 hit and run raiders, it made sense to give it the best performance for the job.

Again, using the VII, the implication then would be they extended the wing tips out of desperation to combat high alt E/A

I think we've agreed in the past that the wartime development of the 190 and Spit parallelled each other with each taking steps up the ladder towards the far end of piston engined fighter development, and I think you'd agree when all was said and done they kept pace with each taking the lead on occasion with the other catching up or passing it again.

You'd take a 190A3, 5, 8, I'd take a Spit IX, VIII, XII.  You'd take a D9, I'd take a Spit XIV.   You'd take a Ta152, I'd take a Spit 21.  It goes on and on