More patriot act discuss

[midnight Target]

1. Identify a common hated enemy.
2. Build up a great fear of that enemy within the people.
2a. squash dissent.
3. Provide a glorious solution to grant safety (at the expense of freedom).
4. rinse and repeat.

sound familiar?

[WhiteHawk]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
what some of you guys are missing is the fact that this program HAD oversite and it wassn't just a blanket permission slip to spy on anyone.  If they had a lead that somone offshore was calling somone onshore they could tap the phone.  Then who ever the next person called they could tap as well.  To me it doesn't look any different than having probably cause.  

WHat I see worse than this is the fact that the NY Times ran the story and put Americans at risk to sell news papers (all though I think the Agenda runs deeper, They 0bviously ran this on election day in Iraq for a reason)

But yea let's just keep playing politics with national security and find out what "grave concequences" really means.

Man, the 'trust em or die' thing is just getting old.  If your scared, then relocate.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Man, the 'trust em or die' thing is just getting old.  If your scared, then relocate.

Where am I saying trust or die.  Most people complaining about this have no clue what it entails.  If you want to tie the federal govts. hands by all means do so by casting your vote.  Playing politics with national security will lead to disaster.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by midnight Target
1. Identify a common hated enemy.
2. Build up a great fear of that enemy within the people.
2a. squash dissent.
3. Provide a glorious solution to grant safety (at the expense of freedom).
4. rinse and repeat.

sound familiar?

Yup sounds like the DNC game plane
1. GWB
2.  Bring up baseless claims that you can't prove and say them loud enough
2a.  Any time somone wants to dissent lable them a Neo-con, racist, bigot, fascist, or go to where they speak and just shout them down.
2b.  OOPS almost forgot:  Take any other free speech that you don't agree with and label it "hate speech" or smother civil rights in the name of diversity and affirmative action.
2c.  When all efforts to drown out dissent fail, label them fascist.
3.  not really exclusive to fascism.
4.  See: "main-stream-media

[SOB]

This isn't Republicans vs Democrats, this is the government and invasion of privacy.  If they have probable cause enough to get a warrant then great, get one.  If you can't get a warrant, then your probable cause isn't good enough to justify spying on a citizen of this country.  If that means I might get blown up tomorrow, so be it.

Now start using your brain and cut out this mindless RvsD bull****.

[NUKE]

I don't know. I kind of think monitoring international communications is probably a good thing, especially in light of the fact that we have tons of dirtbags from other countries in our country trying to screw things up.

Anyway, I wouldn't mind having my international calls monitored........basically because I don't make international calls, but if I did.......I wouldn't be saying anything that I would worry about being overheard.

I know there is the issue of privacy......I just don't mind it in this case.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by SOB
This isn't Republicans vs Democrats, this is the government and invasion of privacy.  If they have probable cause enough to get a warrant then great, get one.  If you can't get a warrant, then your probable cause isn't good enough to justify spying on a citizen of this country.  If that means I might get blown up tomorrow, so be it.

Now start using your brain and cut out this mindless RvsD bull****.

yea but let's say they are monitoring habib's conversation to akmed (akmed living on US soil) and then akmed calls habib Jr who is also on US soil.  These laws allow the "chain" to be monitored with out having to wait for a warrent.  If Akmed and Habib are talking bout there plans they then have to stop and wait, it might be too late.  To me that's like probably cause.  This isn't the chicken little thing that it's being made out to be, to me it sounds like a usfull tool that has allready been effective.  

Actually MT started the "mindless RvsD bull****" by inferring using the lable fasicst.  I clearly stated that we shouldn't play politics when it comes to national security.  On that same note I wonder about the silence from everyone on why this highly classified program was leaked to the NYT?

[SOB]

yea but let's say they are monitoring habib's conversation to akmed (akmed living on US soil) and then akmed calls habib Jr who is also on US soil. These laws allow the "chain" to be monitored with out having to wait for a warrent. If Akmed and Habib are talking bout there plans they then have to stop and wait, it might be too late. To me that's like probably cause. This isn't the chicken little thing that it's being made out to be, to me it sounds like a usfull tool that has allready been effective.

They should certainly have a system in place to get a warrant expediciously.  I do not think they should be allowed the discretion to decide what is and isn't worth "following the chain".  Sorry, our society has a price, and I don't think the possible miss of information in this theoretical case is too high a price.

Actually MT started the "mindless RvsD bull****" by inferring using the lable fasicst. I clearly stated that we shouldn't play politics when it comes to national security. On that same note I wonder about the silence from everyone on why this highly classified program was leaked to the NYT?

If he jumped off of a tall building would you do it to?  There's a reason that saying has been around so long.

I'm guessing this was leaked to the NYT by a citizen and government employee who found this violation of privacy to be repugnant.  But maybe that's just wishful thinking.  You obviously have an opinion...why do you think it was leaked to the press?

[Hornet33]

Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Ok, hornet, good point.  Pre patriot act, step 1.)  produce the evidence to a judge.  2.) request a warrant  3.) recieve a warrant when the judge finds reasonable suspicion (Sp?) 4.) wire tap mohamed and protect the US.  You see, this system works, and in the event of iminent danger, I can see a patriot act that allows wire tapping or surveillence during the warrant aquisition, but to completly elinate all records of surveillence on US citizens is unamerican and quite frankly, I am suspicious.

The only problem with that is you have to have a judge with the proper security clearance, i.e. TS and be cleared on sources and methods. That means that anything the judge reads, writes, or puts his signature on is classified. It's not on public record and no one knows about it. As far as eliminating records, there is nothing wrong with it depending on circumstances. Lets say your phone number pops up at the NSA for whatever reason. You called a wrong number or someone called your number by mistake. NSA starts looking at your number and taps the line. After a period of time goes by they realize that your not a suspect and they don't need to be watching you. They purge all your records from the system and as far as they are concerned you don't exsist anymore. Whats the problem with that? So what would make that any different than what is going on now?

I think there are people out there that hear about this and make  assumption that the NSA is listening to every phone call on the planet, or at least in the U.S.

[NUKE]

Originally posted by SOB
They should certainly have a system in place to get a warrant expediciously.  I do not think they should be allowed the discretion to decide what is and isn't worth "following the chain".  

But if they were not monitoring them in the first place, how would anyone know to get a warrant? Based on what?

It seems that it is a good idea to keep tabs on the dirtbags at all times.

[WhiteHawk]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
Where am I saying trust or die.  Most people complaining about this have no clue what it entails.  If you want to tie the federal govts. hands by all means do so by casting your vote.  Playing politics with national security will lead to disaster.

Umm, 'playing with national security will lead to disaster'.   In your previous write, 'But yea let's just keep playing politics with national security and find out what "grave concequences" really means.'    Sorry if I am missreading this, but, I take it as, let them do as they wish or we will suffer the consequences.  Using terror tactics to lobby for a change inour constitution is a low blow, IMHO.

[NUKE]

It seems pretty simple to me. Monitor all communications to and from all the dirtbag countries. Only the dirtbags will have to worry about anything, and everyone will be a lot more safe.

[Hornet33]

Originally posted by SOB
They should certainly have a system in place to get a warrant expediciously.  I do not think they should be allowed the discretion to decide what is and isn't worth "following the chain".  Sorry, our society has a price, and I don't think the possible miss of information in this theoretical case is too high a price.

The system is in place. It's called an Executive Order. That order was reviewed by the Judicial system and found to be legal within the context of the Constitution. The House of Representatives specifically the Intelligence Oversight Committee have been briefed on the matter and they sighed off on it. All that being said, that gives the NSA a blanket warrant to conduct wire taps on anyone they think might be involved with terrorist activities. Every 45 days or so the records are looked over by these same people and reviewed to make sure that everything is still being done within the law. No ones civil liberties are being violated.

The only thing violated here was the release of classified information, which is punishable under the Espionage Act. I hope they find the leak and put the ******* away in a dark room and throw away the room.

[WhiteHawk]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
yea but let's say they are monitoring habib's conversation to akmed (akmed living on US soil) and then akmed calls habib Jr who is also on US soil.  These laws allow the "chain" to be monitored with out having to wait for a warrent.  If Akmed and Habib are talking bout there plans they then have to stop and wait, it might be too late.  To me that's like probably cause.  This isn't the chicken little thing that it's being made out to be, to me it sounds like a usfull tool that has allready been effective.  

Actually MT started the "mindless RvsD bull****" by inferring using the lable fasicst.  I clearly stated that we shouldn't play politics when it comes to national security.  On that same note I wonder about the silence from everyone on why this highly classified program was leaked to the NYT?

Youre right on the money.  the govt should have the authority to monitor suspicious people while they are aquiring a warrant.  If the warrant is not granted, then they cease immediatly.  This is a huge tool in the fight on terror.  The carte blanche surveillence tactics the patriot act is requesting is a huge tool for a corrutp govt. to ensure its survival.  Never give away your guns or your privacy.  Once they are gone, they are gone forever.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by SOB
They should certainly have a system in place to get a warrant expediciously.  I do not think they should be allowed the discretion to decide what is and isn't worth "following the chain".  Sorry, our society has a price, and I don't think the possible miss of information in this theoretical case is too high a price.


If he jumped off of a tall building would you do it to?  There's a reason that saying has been around so long.

I'm guessing this was leaked to the NYT by a citizen and government employee who found this violation of privacy to be repugnant.  But maybe that's just wishful thinking.  You obviously have an opinion...why do you think it was leaked to the press?

they do have a system in place.  The NY times explains this.  way dont on paragraph 16 or something.  To me it doesn't matter a citizens view on what's repugnnant or not leaking classified information is a crime.  I could find the Iraq occupation repugnant but that still doesnt justify broacasting plans and troop movements.  

Again I don't see how this is a violation of privacy.  At the very least this is walking a "fine line" I wish people would actually read for once instead of letting the NYT form their opinion for them.