Flaming Zekes

[Saxman]

Just a quick observation about a scrap we had during the morning yesterday (12/18) against a CV.

Guy got a hit on a Zero and lit him on fire. I off-handedly remarked "Gee those Japanese planes are pretty when they burn" and he replied "Yeah, but they can burn for hours and still fly" or something like that.

That got me thinking...Don't aircraft, especially the Japanese birds which may as well have been made from cigarette paper with all the magnesium in their construction, tend to EXPLODE when they catch on fire? Certainly one would expect the prospects for flying that plane for ANY length of time to be slim, to put it mildly.

[Ghosth]

Saxman

Once a zeke is on fire his prospects ARE slim.

May seem like a long time, but in 30 seconds are so he's going to be nothing but a pile of ashes.

[hubsonfire]

Has anyone ever timed the burning sequences on the different planes? I thought I'd seen HT post somewhere that the timing allowed you to make the decision to land, bail, or die trying, but in my experiences, only the zeke could be landed. The others exploded far too quickly, while I've landed, and seen other zekes land while on fire.

Maybe it's just the comparative slow speeds, and better maneuverability, but it seems strange to me.

[Saxman]

That's exactly the point. The rest of that guy's comment was that you more or less had to keep shooting them, otherwise they'd keep on flying.

In fact, I had this happen to me the other day against an N1K. Dude got lit on fire and STILL followed me for a good minute or so (including giving me an effin' pilot wound) before a couple guys finally shot him into the ground. It WASN'T the fire that killed him.

Something's not right, considering those birds should go up like a match when lit.

[Karnak]

Saxman,

Keep in mind that all of the Japanese Army aircraft we have in AH do have protection and self sealing tanks as does the N1K2-J.

Also keep in mind that the aluminum alloy the Japanese used for aircraft construction was actually stronger per pound than anybody elses, it just would corrode and become unacceptably weak in about 50 years.

Probably the most unrealistic aspect of fire in AH is not anything the aircraft does, but rather allowing the simulated pilot to fly and fight an aircraft when he would be either dying or doing everything possible to get out in reality.

[Kev367th]

So we shouldn't be able to control or fly the plane when on fire, as we should be bailing out?

They do like nice though, like a meteor streaking across the sky

[Karnak]

I would suggest progressively poorer control as a model, and not just a steady reduction in force applied to the stick, but rather highly variable force applied to the stick so as to make fine manuevering increasinly impossible.

[Saxman]

Karnak

Strength of material has nothing to do with it, there was a higher then normal content of magnesium in the alloy (which accounts for the lightness) used by the Japanese. Magnesium has this tendency to burn, (and by burn, I mean explosively so) and while self-sealing fuel tanks might prevent the tank from getting punctured, it's not going to necessarily stop gas from getting touched off when one's plane is turned into a Roman Candle (very good story I read from the perspective of an F6F pilot, who was very justifiably afraid the self-sealing lining ITSELF was burning when his plane caught fire. It turned out to be the tire, but that's beside the point).

[Karnak]

I doubt the percentage of magnisium in the aluminum alloy was sufficient to make the alloy itself flamable.

As I said, I don't think the fires were causing the structural failures.  If there were structural failures immediately they were caused by gunfire.  An airframe able to survive 8 Gs is not going to melt and break in 1 second under 1 G.

I think the pilot's modeling in regards to fire needs to be examined before the aircraft's model does.

[DoKGonZo]

Originally posted by Karnak
...

I think the pilot's modeling in regards to fire needs to be examined before the aircraft's model does.

And not just in regards to fire. We've all seen the dweebs who, after having a wing blown off and now spiraling down to earth, will hold down the fire button hoping to get a lucky hit on anything nearby.

So maybe a first step would be that upon catching fire or a catastophic hit (wing or tail blown off) your guns are disabled - so that your only action should be trying to find a place to ditch.

[hubsonfire]

What were the skins on the control surfaces of the N1k and A6M made of? Where they also skinned with that alloy, or fabric covered?

I've gathered that in WW2, shooting things with cannons and setting them on fire was a good way to disable big, important things. I may be nutty, but I'd think that would also be true in here.

[Saxman]

Karnak, you're missing my point. I'm not talking about structural failure (and point of order, I thought it was pretty well documented a Zeke COULDN'T handle 8g acceleration at most speeds?) I'm talking about the simple fact that once lit on fire, Japanese aircraft had the tendency to go up like a California wildfire. Kaboom. Explosion.

[Karnak]

Saxman,

I've seen many pictures of Japanese aircraft trailing fire, but can't say I've ever heard of one exploding like you are describing (like a pilot kill in AH, yes?).

As to speed and the 8G acceleration, what is the connection?  8Gs is 8Gs and that will either cause a failure or not.  Maybe you misunderstood me a bit, I was not commenting on the A6M's ability to reach 8Gs, which, if it could at all, certainly could not be reached above 200-250mph or so.

Once again I also caution you from using the A6M, Ki-43 or G4M as references and applying their flamability to all Japanese aircraft.

Even in those cases it varied.  I have read on account of an F6F squadron hitting a G4M and one of the F6F pilots joked that it finally went down due to all the extra weight of the .50s they'd pumped into it.  They were quite incredulous that it had not caught fire.

It was probably a G4M3 with full fuel system protection.

[hubsonfire]

Originally posted by Karnak
Once again I also caution you from using the A6M, Ki-43 or G4M as references and applying their flamability to all Japanese aircraft.

I am specifically referring to the A6M in this discussion. What happens when one gets set on fire with cannon/heavy machinegun fire?

[Kweassa]

The tendency to catch fires that don't go out is caused by the unprotected fuel tanks. Zekes burn because their fuel catches fire, and then the spreading fire quickly ignites whatever can be ignited internally, in such a poorly protected plane - not because their exterior skin has a magnesium content. IIRC this tendency to fireball even with a few hits, drops steadily as the Japanese fighters develop better means for internal protection.

 The guns being fired at the JP fighters being typicaly 50cal API - probably means that ultimately, ALL JP fighters are gonna go out in flames rather than explode or succumb to structural failure. Multuple APIs at the fuel tank, no matter how well protected, is gonna start a fire - but that fact applies to any plane regardless of country. As a matter of fact, virtually every guncam footage I've seen depicts the final moments of targetted planes (of all countries, including the 'better protected' US fighters) in flames, pilot bailing out under heavy smoke, and etc.. rather than something actually exploding or snapping off.

 If the magnesium content is a fire starter, then holding up a blowtorch to the plane to repair it is gonna make it explode in fireballs. How'd Japanese mechanics ever weld anything?