Author Topic: DB605A - Takeoff and WEP limitation  (Read 831 times)

Offline George

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DB605A - Takeoff and WEP limitation
« on: December 21, 2005, 11:07:05 AM »
Dear ALL

G-1 Kennblatt shows that "Start und Notleistung" CAN NOT BE USED YET.
"G-2 maintenance manual" issued at March, 1943, "G-4/R3 and G-6/R3 maintenance manual" issued at February, 1944 and "G-12 maintenance manual" issued at December, 1944 shows that "Start und Notleistung"
CAN NOT BE USED AND BLOCKED.
However,  G-6/DB605A data shown in GL/C-E2, 13.8.1944 and 01.11.1944 includes "Start und Notleistung" speed.
I also met records about Takeoff and WEP limitation cancelling in other sources.

Do you know, when Takeoff and WEP limitaion of DB605A has been cancelled?
Or it has not be cancelled at all?
Do you know any source which confirmed that Luftwaffe pilots ignored limimtation of "Start und Notleistung" use?

Offline Crumpp

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DB605A - Takeoff and WEP limitation
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2005, 12:29:00 PM »
Quote
"G-12 maintenance manual" issued at December, 1944 shows that "Start und Notleistung"


I would think the G-12 would have stayed restricted simply due to the type.  It is rather stupid to needless increase maintenance requirements in a trainer.

The trainees would not get any benefit from the increase in speed either.

"Ok men, today we are going to fly 30kph faster.  Are you prepared to handle it??"

;)

Butch2K put out some good information regarding this. IIRC it was lifted in spring/summer 1943.  I will see what I can dig up or perhaps one of the 109 experts will drop in.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline gatt

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DB605A - Takeoff and WEP limitation
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2005, 01:39:14 PM »
From Radinger-Otto: "This (1.475 H.P. and 1.42 ATA) output was initially banned by VT-Anw.Nr.2206 and was not reinstated until 8 june 1943 when Daimler Benz issued a technical directive".
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline George

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DB605A - Takeoff and WEP limitation
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2005, 01:06:20 AM »
Thank you, Gatt
It's very interesting info.
Does anybody have this technical directive?

Offline MiloMorai

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DB605A - Takeoff and WEP limitation
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2005, 01:53:24 AM »
gatt, that conflicks with what is said here, http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit9v109g.html

Even in Feb 44 St und Nort was still blocked.

Offline justin_g

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DB605A - Takeoff and WEP limitation
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2005, 02:21:30 AM »
Not really - what is shown there is that the earliest evidence of 1.42ata that MW has found/is aware of, is from Feb 44.

Offline gatt

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DB605A - Takeoff and WEP limitation
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2005, 02:31:30 AM »
Milo,
I had (before the wife-ack got it during a house change :() a copy of an original DB605A handbook without that limitation and actually it was dated summer 1943.
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline MiloMorai

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DB605A - Takeoff and WEP limitation
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2005, 02:56:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by justin_g
Not really - what is shown there is that the earliest evidence of 1.42ata that MW has found/is aware of, is from Feb 44.


justin, there is still the June 1943 order.

gatt, manuals are not always up to date. It takes time to write and produce them (no computers back then).

Offline gatt

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DB605A - Takeoff and WEP limitation
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2005, 03:17:24 AM »
No Milo, manuals were updated with inserts (heck, even italians did it ;)), moreover a slightly older manual actually had the 2.600 and 1.3ata limitation.
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline justin_g

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DB605A - Takeoff and WEP limitation
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2005, 03:25:19 AM »
Your logic makes no sense. On one hand you claim that the June 1943 "order"(actually the quote is from a service manual) blocking 1.42ata is golden - and on the other hand that a manual from the same time period which states that 1.42ata is usable must be one that wasn't up to date. Even though 1.42ata was never allowed before, so if a manual did claim 1.42ata was usable then this in fact would be an update!!

Offline Kurfürst

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DB605A - Takeoff and WEP limitation
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2005, 04:06:49 AM »
Keep in mind that Mike Williams website is very biased and heavily manipulating with information. The article he has written cherry picks between 109G data, selecting the worst for display, selecting planes with cannon gondolas and tropical equipment etc. and dismissing all conflicting information. All of the his 109vsSpit articles are showing the best Spitifire figures in some cases for experimental machines at the highest engine rating, while at the same time Bf 109s are never shown at high boost rating. German, Finnish and Soviet testing of 109G are equally dismissed if the dataset is good. In brief, if Mike Williams or his co-author Neil Stirling says something about the 109, or the 190 for that matter, you can be sure they have an agenda about it, and the opposite is true.

Now as for the 1,42ata rating, it was appearantly cleared in September/October 1943. Mankau/Patrick goes into great detail of the 605 development and problems. They last discussion they note about the Freigabe of Startleistung of the 605 is from September 1943, then the question did not rise again. Daimler Benz was to produce 1000 oil dearator sets in that month, which seems to be the final fix for the problems. The October 1943 Bf 109G Flugzeughandbuch note no limitation for use 1.42ata.

It seems that the problem was partly partially solved at the start of 1943, where the Startdrehzahl (2800rpm) was cleared for operational use, but the MAP stayed at 1.3ata. German engine documention (the ACTUAL DB 605A manuals, not aircraft datasheets) also note no limitation for 1.42ata in November 1942.I presume they simply issued the same manual over and over (if you see the complete ones, you know this is true, ie. late 109G manuals have the obsolate text simply strike through with a pencil) with an ammendment that 1.42ata is now cleared, it's fairly typical for WW2 aircraft manuals, or it simply was this way because at the time of the preparation of the manual (if it's march 1944, probably they prepeared it a few months ago), there could still be some engines in service that did not have the neccesary mods for the higher boost. And, again, DB 605A's with MW50 injection were running at 1.7ata by April already, so I guess they wouldn't have troulbe running at 1.42ata by then. :)

Mike Williams was shown of these facts, which he continoues to ignore. Frankly he has so much discredited himself with those articles that I don't even see Spitfire fans qouting his articles. What he tries is to make it look like 1.42ata was not yet cleared even in 1944, using the manuals listing. That's nothing new, Mike and Neil does the same about EVERY german engine rating, they deny it all. They deny the DB 601Aa was used, they deny the special low altiude WEP of the DB 601 bein in use pre-1942 :lol , they deny the DB 601N was used during the BoB, they deny 1.42ata was used in 1943, they deny the use of 1.98ata for the DB 605D. They were shown the evidence about it mulitple times, nothing changed. BTW it's curious why they didn't make a MkV vs. 109F comparison article, I guess they didn't find 'low enough' figures for the 109F.

Besides, it's not the aircraft manual that determines what boost it may use or not. There are loads of other documentation for that, the aircraft manual is just some general information, it's usually the Motorenkarte that tells the limitations, the individual specsheet of each engine, the Einbaumappe and the various engine related docs for mechanics.

And as for a bottom line for the article... the Germans were'nt probably much pressed about the issue. The 109G's performance was not too much different at 1.3ata (on which it could run for 30 minutes) and 1.42ata, and even at 1.3ata, it got plenty of it over the RAF Spitfire Vs it usually faced, given that the MkIXs were rare birds until the very end of 1943.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2005, 04:10:42 AM by Kurfürst »
The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site
http://www.kurfurst.org

Offline George

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DB605A - Takeoff and WEP limitation
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2005, 06:59:12 AM »
Dear Kurfurst
"The October 1943 Bf 109G Flugzeughandbuch note no limitation for use 1.42ata. "
Bf109G-3 and Bf109G-4 Flugzeug-Handbuch (stand august 1943, ausgabe September 1943) also note no limitation.
But whether any Bf109G Flugzeug-Handbuch noted this limitation earlier?
Maybe all previous Flugzeug-Handbuch also noted no limitation?

I'm not trying to prove that Bf109G was bad.
Quite the contrary, I'm trying to prove that it was greatly better than it's shown in the most Soviet sources.
But I want to get truth.

Would you please to post any German documents about fixing of Strat und Not. problems?

By the way, I'm not agree that 'the 109G's performance was not too much different at 1.3ata (on which it could run for 30 minutes) and 1.42ata".
It seems that difference of speed should be about 20-30 km/h at sea level.
It's not a trifle.

Offline MiloMorai

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DB605A - Takeoff and WEP limitation
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2005, 07:11:43 AM »
justin/gatt as George says "Would you please to post any German documents about fixing of Strat und Not. problems?"

I was just showing that there was other docs that dispute the clearing dates of 1.42 to further the discussion on when 1.42 was really cleared.

George, I am sending you a private message, shortly.

Offline George

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DB605A - Takeoff and WEP limitation
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2005, 07:15:38 AM »
OK, Milo
here is my e-mail: teknika-ved@mail.ru

Offline gatt

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DB605A - Takeoff and WEP limitation
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2005, 07:20:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by George
Maybe all previous Flugzeug-Handbuch also noted no limitation? (Snip)
By the way, I'm not agree that 'the 109G's performance was not too much different at 1.3ata (on which it could run for 30 minutes) and 1.42ata".
It seems that difference of speed should be about 20-30 km/h at sea level.
It's not a trifle.


There were Flugzeug Handbuck with that limitation indeed. I had and saw them.

Everything is available at:
http://www.luftfahrt-archiv-hafner.de/

Italian Series 5 DB605A engined fighters, like the C.205 and G.55, had the (2.600rpm and 1.3ata) limitation in their flight manuals up to 1945.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2005, 07:51:26 AM by gatt »
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown