Why so many people complain that german planes suck but still retains good K/D ratio?

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Pooface
well ive seen you fly about in la7s reasonably frequently. they're even worse, because you can run away whenever you like

You have??

Tell me exactly when that was cause I dont even remember the last time I was even in an La7 let alone flown one frequently.

I think you may be suffering from a bad case of mistaken identity lol

[Glasses]

I find it quite laughable  people who mostly fly overly generrous flap extending aircraft cvall the LW plane pilots etc wussies well, if they turned in on a dime or had any type of stability and cohesion in their flight characteristics they might, might give a fight.

Thing is more than likley the 190 and or 109 if not being escorted in a gaggle of spits and la7s won't do much. The fact that a Pony can run down a Dora Co E right now is quite laughable, even  a maneuver of pulling up in a turn with two notches of flap being extended  nose high, can run down said plane.


I mean if I weere in something other respectable planes like a P-47  in a 109 instead of being themselves escorted by the dweeb rides then they would know.

MOst of the people that are quick to throw the Luftwhine card don't even fly the LW planes themselves and don't know the capabilities of the aircraft in Game, the only plane that can sort of put out a fight are the 109s and the 190A-5, the 190A-8 if it doesn't maintain a siezable amount of High speed and altitude it won't come out of the fight, since neither can run, the Dora however, retains speed in vertical maneuvers slightly better than the 190A-8(A-5), and it cannot do jack of scheisse when it comes to maneuvering against the cluster of spitXVIs, so again fly the planes for one night try to make the ahem fights you say they run away from,is not because they can't fight(except for Nathbdp who has made a pact with the devil himself   )
is because they aren't allowed to fight by the restraints of the current questionable FM.

Just my 50 cents

PS I'll keep "running" cherry pick and  destroy Spitfires far below and get away as long as the FM is at it is

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Glasses
I find it quite laughable  people who mostly fly overly generrous flap extending aircraft cvall the LW plane pilots etc wussies well, if they turned in on a dime or had any type of stability and cohesion in their flight characteristics they might, might give a fight.

It's always been this way. People who only fly planes that manuever very well have real legitimate contempt for people who choose to fly planes that do not manuever as well. The reason is, as you stated in not so many words, planes that do not manuever very well prey on planes that do manuever well by NOT turning with them. Needless to say that is very fustrating for the manueverable plane, they are more or less at the mercy of the faster, yet less manueverable plane. Faster planes are practically invulnerable to slower planes if they do not turn with them, slower planes are always somewhat vulnerable to faster planes regardless of what they do.

However, the reverse is not true. A more manueverable plane cannot force a less manueverable but faster plane to turn with him or even engage him.  The faster plane can just disengage/re-engage at will (of course being called timid in the process). This again evokes vehement contempt from the slow, manuevering plane. The Fw190 vs. the SPitXVI is a prime example of such a match-up. Never do you hear a Fw190 (insert favorite speed ride here) complaining that a more manueverable plane is using that manueverability to advantage (turning). But, constantly we hear people in very manueverable planes pissin' n' moanin' about faster planes using their speed to advantage.

The simple fact is not everyone wants to fly a SpitXVI or the like, thank God, enough do already.  Alot of people 'get off' on flying and becoming proficient at the lesser used rides, there's a certain satisfaction in being good at something few if any other people are good at. Complaining about a faster, less manueverable plane like the Fw190 using speed and altitude to its advantage is rediculous, it's as rediculous as whining and complaining about a manueverable yet slower Spitfire using it's turnrate to its advantage (which I have never heard anyone do once, ever in 15 years).

There's a really simple rule of thumb here:


The more nimble the plane you fly the fewer planes there are that are going to want to turnfight/engage you. Therefore, the more you are going to get cherry picked, BnZ'd, gang-banged and run-down.



So, if you want more turnfights or fights in general from LW planes or any other mediocre plane it's really simple. Fly a plane the typical LW pilot may feel he has a fighting chance to beat. I'll give you a free hint to get you started, it sure as hell isn't the La7 or Spitfire. Ironically, the more poorly the plane you fly manuevers the more 1 vs 1s you will get. In fact, you will get more fights period. Flying an uber-plane, especially an uber-manuevering plane, such as the Spit, P38, P51 or Niki, is the worst possible thing you could do if you are really looking for frequent, good, relatively even fights. So, if you 1 vs. 1 cowboys, always crowing about your superlative DA talent, are for real and not completely FoS as I strongly suspect some of you are, put the Spit, La7 etc. permanently in the garage, grab a mediocre manuevering plane and get your wet dream of being engaged by just about any plane you may happen to come across in the MA.



Zazen

[Bruno]

S I'll keep "running" cherry pick and destroy Spitfires far below and get away as long as the FM is at it is

Kind of reminds of the WBs LW plane set. Over there they keep playing with the center of gravity to ensure thst the LW couldn't much more then 'fly fast and straight'.

Fröhliche Weihnacht,

Wotan Mit Uns!!!!

[tikky]

iv been comparing ALL WWII flite sims lately and german planes in IL-2/FB seem to be a bit more generous...

[Squire]

I find your signature much more relevent than your post Zazen.  It pretty much sims it up.

As for the rest of it, all you need to do is listen to ch.200 and hear all the high quality debate to realise that its simply a name calling game. Everybody HOs and vulches, and gang bangs, yet they all deny that they do it more than the other side does, and so it goes. The players doing the mud slinging are never flying P-40Bs or A6M2s though? thats the strange thing, eh?

"My 1944 ride isnt as dweeby as your 1944 ride"

MA psycobable. Pffft. God help us.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Glasses
I fly in a leather thong and I still suck

[Schatzi]

Originally posted by Zazen13
The more nimble the plane you fly the fewer planes there are that are going to want to turnfight/engage you. Therefore, the more you are going to get cherry picked, BnZ'd, gang-banged and run-down.
[/B]

UhHuh. Yes, definitly. Also not always and entirely true.

I favor one of the nimblest fighter in the game. Fortunatly its also one of the weakest that, for most pilots, has a 'easy kill' sign on its wing. So i *do* get a good turnfight every now and then.

I have to admit though, that my frustration limit is usually used to its brim by one-pass-extend-forever guys. All i can do about those is take a deep breath, say to myself 'this is what you choose when hopping in a Hurri1' and look for another con, praying its not a bomber .

Then there are the really great fights against 'top notch' players. They are usually equally frustrating, cause they do the smart thing and stay out of range of my 303s by exploiting their speed advantage. Those fights usually boil down to who makes the first mistake (where mine are usually deadly and the enemy has a good chance of surviving his). I love those fights.


What i want to say is: theres usually four groups of pilots


 - HO and extend forever
 - start a turnfight with their PonyB against my Hurr1 (predictable outcome)
 - smart flyers as stated above, that engage and extend at will, never going too far, keeping me busy in my evasives
 - those that engage me, and after a few passes realise that im not the easy kill they thought i would be and then go their merry way, ignoring me entirely

Yes, i can entirely feel for the Spit pilot that would like the LW to turn with him. Smart LW wont ever do that for a lenghty time.


So, fly whaterver plane suits you, fly it in wichever way suit you. Youll get called names any ways.

[Kolibri]

I like LW planes very much.

But say what you want there are 2 main failures with LW planes.

First the acceleration when going straight down on the deck is not what it should be. It seems that any other plane has a better acceleration in AH than a LW plane. In WB 2, AW and IL2 I made some other experience.
But maybe they are all wrong and only HTC is right - rofl.

Second most of the german fighter had combat flaps. Where are they at AH??? Using combat flaps isn't easy but it helps very much in turnfights. Ofcourse I lost sometimes my wings when using combat flaps in IL2. But a YAK cant' outturn me in a 109-G6 in IL2 when i use combat flaps at the right way.

But however even in AH are the german planes quiet good. -  If you use as a bnz. As long as you dont go for turnfights on the deck with LALA's and Spits.

And only weak player need allways the best planes. rofl lmao

Nightfire

[ghi]

Originally posted by tikky


???

 
 K/D say nothing, but the Lw planes are modeled unfair,like bricks!
 
watch the way P38s are modeled,  super macho planes in AH, have better flight caracteristics than 90% of Lw.
  but in reality ,acording with the statements of pilots ,  they were eassy kills ,  no match for  109s/190s, that's why were used mostly for jabo on west front

[jaxxo]

hmmm..the 38 had massive mechanical problems in europe due to weather...38 was far more than a match for any german ride from what Ive read..ya know that whole "fork tailed devil" thing....

[gatt]

Nice post Schatzi

I have to admit though, that my frustration limit is usually used to its brim by one-pass-extend-forever guys. All i can do about those is take a deep breath, say to myself 'this is what you choose when hopping in a Hurri1' and look for another con, praying its not a bomber

Well, sometimes happen that a foe does one pass and then extend forever becouse a high bogey is incoming or an enemy base with T/Os is too close. Engagements in the main are seldom 1vs1 and it is quite annoying to be cought with pants down while "hitting&climbing" on a slow but deadly Hurry

[Soulyss]

You can't draw direct comparisons many times.  Statements to the effect that 38's were easy prey for the LW don't tell the whole story.  At 30,000 feet where much of the fighting was.  The early 38's had many supercharger problems.  Also the 38's encountered compressibility issues.  At 30k a 109 or 190 could split S and dive away and the 38 would be reluctant to follow for fear of not being able to pull out of the dive.  

Down low the (where most combat in the MA is) the 38's made a much better showing.  

Also there was the issue of identification.  The 38 has a very distinctive shape.  LW pilots had little trouble IDing them from greater distances.  Which of course isn't a factor in AH.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by gatt
Nice post Schatzi



Well, sometimes happen that a foe does one pass and then extend forever becouse a high bogey is incoming or an enemy base with T/Os is too close. Engagements in the main are seldom 1vs1 and it is quite annoying to be cought with pants down while "hitting&climbing" on a slow but deadly Hurry

That's a great point. Situational Awareness especially bad SA is very, very subjective. I have rarely heard two people re-hashing an engagement on channel 200 have even a similiar recollection of the overall tactical picture. More often than not one guy was aware of tactically relavent factors the other was entirely oblivious to.

As you said, people flying tactically with some kind of E advantage are not going to be willing to blow that E for just one kill if it's likely it will take so long doing so that proximate enemy will then be in a position to attack him with advantage. Instead they will let that one guy go in favor of consolidating position and advantage to prepare for additional incoming enemy. The single most important factor in the MA is killing quickly. The longer it takes you to kill the more likely it is you are going to get, cherry picked, bounced/BnZ'd, gang-banged or run-down. That's the only real tool a turnfighter has against an E fighter with an advantage, make the engagement last so long the E fighter is forced to break-off or be put in a compromising position by himself or friendlies due to a degrading relative E state.

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Schatzi


Then there are the really great fights against 'top notch' players. They are usually equally frustrating, cause they do the smart thing and stay out of range of my 303s by exploiting their speed advantage. Those fights usually boil down to who makes the first mistake (where mine are usually deadly and the enemy has a good chance of surviving his). I love those fights.
 
 - smart flyers as stated above, that engage and extend at will, never going too far, keeping me busy in my evasives
 - those that engage me, and after a few passes realise that im not the easy kill they thought i would be and then go their merry way, ignoring me entirely

Yes, i can entirely feel for the Spit pilot that would like the LW to turn with him. Smart LW wont ever do that for a lenghty time.

Nice explanation of smart flying. When engaging more manueverable opponents, the name of the game is shooting opportunities. The less manueverable plane must use an E advantage to produce shooting opportunities. Obviously, the better he is at Energy Fighting the more shooting opportunities he will be able to produce before he is forced to disengage because E states have equalized to the point he can no longer produce viable shooting opportunities while still maintaining seperation. Therefore aim and firepower are extremely critical assets for the Energy Fighter so as to exploit those shooting opportunities to their maximum potential.

Zazen