Author Topic: Whats going on in Canada?  (Read 4403 times)

Offline Momus--

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Whats going on in Canada?
« Reply #150 on: January 06, 2006, 03:48:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
I believe predators become emboldened over time as their prey become weaker.

Still confused?


I'd say you were confused. I've produced two statements from you where you suggest the UK handgun ban has emboldened or otherwise made life easier for the criminal classes. I've asked you outright if this is your opinion; you have answered in the negative but then made a wooly generalising statement that would seem to contradict this.

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What do you think will happen in a society where the penalty for resisting someone burgling your home is greater than the penalty for being the burglar?


Why don't you enlighten us? I'm sure you can produce umpteen examples to support whatever case you think you're making?

Offline beet1e

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Whats going on in Canada?
« Reply #151 on: January 06, 2006, 04:26:30 AM »
OK Mr. Toad, let's go through this one more time - a side by side comparison of Britain (and Bermuda, and France, and Germany and... lots of other countries) versus the US, and look at some of the things that you have spoken about that should be banned in addition to guns, if we're to maintain consistency.

1) Cars. In previous threads, you have put it to me that as far more people die in road accidents than are shot, if guns are to be banned then cars should be too. But as we both know, in the modern age we are dependent on transport to sustain a thriving economy. If we did not have roads and cars, lorries, vans etc., we would be driven back to the middle ages. Indeed, given the size of the population, life would be unsustainable without road transport.

2) Alcohol. I have given some reasons why alcohol is not banned. The US example in the years 1926-1933 shows what happens if alcohol is banned. The problem is driven underground, and alcohol supply becomes controlled by organised crime. Not only that, but a huge swathe of the economy (restaurants, pubs, hotels) would be affected. With France just ~20 miles off the Kent coast, there would be fleets of small craft importing it. I'm sure the police could be bought off to look the other way when the boat comes in. In short, it wouldn't work. Alcohol IS banned in strict muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, but even the saudis realised that the foreign workers who live in compounds off limits to the indigenous population had to be allowed alcohol. In Qatar, with its large (75%) expat population, they realised there was no way of maintaining an alcohol ban, so now the expats who live there can get a liquor licence and a well stocked sideboard of booze.

3) Guns. It is obvious from the volume of threads on this board about guns that shooting is enormously popular in the US, whether at beer cans or at game birds or larger animals. And as you know, the shooting of game birds like pheasant is an established activity here in Blighty. BUT... guns never had so central a role in Britain as they did in the US. The lines on the map were established long before guns were invented. Battles like Bosworth Field, Naseby and Cropredy Bridge were fought with pikes, not guns. So we never ended up with a "gun culture" as you have in the US. Clearly, a gun ban in the US is never going to happen. It would be unworkable. Your NRA is firmly established and lines the pockets of politicians with millions of $. But here in Britain??? We have no NRA. There is bugger all interest in handguns. That John Lott book Lazs wanted me to read sold on eBay for a mere £2. That should tell you something about the level of interest in guns here. So yes, a ban on guns works here - because it's what most people want, whether you choose to believe it or not.

You're fond of quoting your NRA claptrap which suggests that as downtrodden "subjects", we were unable to prevent the government taking away guns - 1920 and all that. And it's bollocks. As I've said before, the government that passed the 1920 Firearms Act was reelected two years later!!. The act may have "sailed through parliament", as your NRA puts it, but that's the way the vast majority wanted it. There was no protest. Another two years on and Britain had its first Labour government, representing the workers - the "downtrodden" masses. And guess what? They did not repeal the Firearms Act. Funny that...

So as you can see, we are doing what we can. The availability of Cars, Alcohol and Guns all result in thousands of deaths - that much is true. Neither the US or the UK could ban cars or alcohol. And the US could never ban guns, although assault weapons were banned. But here in Britain, a gun ban IS workable. No "gun culture" has ever developed.

So I don't see anything wrong with our status quo. What you're saying is that if we ban guns, we must also ban alcohol and cars, or else it's hypocritical. Well hey, I wasn't Prime Minister when guns were banned, so don't blame me. Your logic seems to originate from the Ripsnortian school of thought that says that either all laws must work perfectly, or there should be no laws at all.

Now if you post back, do try to keep it on topic. DO NOT bring up an aside, and then cite my answer as "not germane to the discussion". YOU were the one who spouted at length about alcohol usage in Britain - this is a thread about Canada.

And... one more time - the 1997 legislation was not a "ban". Guns were already as rare as hens' teeth before that or, as Dowding put it "Gun ownership before the ban, sod all, gun ownership after the ban, sod all".

Offline Saintaw

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edited for speeling
« Reply #152 on: January 06, 2006, 04:51:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
In switzerland people carry rifles around or have them by their side at resteraunts....
lazs


That was back when you were 20 in 1883, I go to Lausanne periodicaly, an have yet to see anyone with a rifle in a restaurant. Seriously, find your info somewhere else than in the "Dixon daily".  (Edit: it comes to mind that you & I do not share the same type of restaurant... that must be it!)

Also, there is almost no/low crime because... well, it's Switzerland. A country where you will be reported to the police by civilians if you drive 1MPH over the speed limit or if your fart doesn't sound like the national anthemn.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2006, 05:02:54 AM by Saintaw »
Saw
Dirty, nasty furriner.

Offline moot

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Re: edited for speeling
« Reply #153 on: January 06, 2006, 05:09:58 AM »
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That was back when you were 200 in 1883
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline beet1e

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Re: edited for speeling
« Reply #154 on: January 06, 2006, 05:12:30 AM »
Oh, and Mr. Toad - one more thing. How come drugs like heroin and LSD are banned in the US, but cars and alcohol are not? Doesn't this seem to you to be a wee bit... hypocritical??? :D

Quote
Originally posted by Saintaw
"Dixon daily"
:lol

Offline Toad

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Whats going on in Canada?
« Reply #155 on: January 06, 2006, 10:02:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Momus--
I'd say you were confused.


I'd say I'm amazed you fail to see my meaning.

Try this:

I believe criminals become emboldened over time as their victims become weaker. Clearly, the restrictions on firearms and the restrictions put upon those resisting crime have weakened the victims.

Can't be anymore clear for you, sorry.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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Whats going on in Canada?
« Reply #156 on: January 06, 2006, 10:11:08 AM »
Lovely boatload of red herring again, Beetle. Do try to stay on the point, please.

The point under discussion is why YOU...just YOU... find it so necessary and proper to ban handguns and restrict firearms in general in Britain to "save so many lives needlessly lost" whilst totally ignoring the carnage caused in your society by alcohol.

50% of the violence in the UK is alcohol related. This means far more lives could be saved, far more battered wives and battered children could be spared and your healthcare system unburdened if only Britain would take the obvious next step in protecting her citizens.

Why don't you support an alcohol ban if you are SO concerned about saving lives, as evidenced by your support of the handgun ban and firearms restrictions?

I'll offer the obvious answer: You have no interest in firearms, so you don't care what your government does to other citizens in that regard.

You DO have an interest in drinking alcohol, so you object to any restrictions placed upon your "right" in that regard.

In other words, it's all "whose ox is being gored".  Your concern over "saving lives" is merely a smokescreen and is quite selective.

You're all for saving lives if it doesn't inconvenience Beetle[/i]. That's the sum of it.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline beet1e

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Whats going on in Canada?
« Reply #157 on: January 06, 2006, 10:41:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
The point under discussion is why YOU...just YOU... find it so necessary and proper to ban handguns and restrict firearms in general in Britain to "save so many lives needlessly lost" whilst totally ignoring the carnage caused in your society by alcohol.
It's not just ME. Handguns are banned, and other firearms are restricted. I had nothing to do with it. But the status quo is the way MOST Brits want it. Alcohol has a place in our society, handguns do not.

What percentage of crime in the US is alcohol related? I bet it's not much different from Britain.
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We're discussing your enthusiastic support of allowing people to drink when it's clear far more people abuse alcohol and wreak havoc upon their fellow citizens in comparison to citizens abusing the use of firearms. You've a clear double standard and it makes you look foolish.
Well, the US government allows the purchase and consumption of alcohol and tobacco, but not class A drugs like heroin, despite the fact that alcohol and tobacco are responsible for far more deaths than heroin. In your own parlance, this represents a clear double standard which makes the US government look foolish. And... you yourself are fond of 25 year old single malt, whereas I doubt very much that you'd be in favour of legalisation of heroin. - Another double standard, and it is clear that your denunciation of me as a hypocrite is itself hypocritical.

Offline Momus--

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Whats going on in Canada?
« Reply #158 on: January 06, 2006, 10:42:33 AM »
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I'd say I'm amazed you fail to see my meaning


I get your meaning quite clearly. You made several statements to the effect of suggesting that a reduction in legal handgun ownership in the UK from a previously very low level to a zero level was somehow giving the green light to the criminal classes, the implication being that they were hitherto being deterred from their nefarious activities by a handful of weapon owners, a large proportion of whom already kept their weapons off-premises and NONE of whom had the right of concealed-carry.

You then denied saying this, but then when pressed resorted to vague statements regarding "predators and prey".

What is amazing is your inability to give a simple answer to a direct question. You either think that removing weapons from a tiny proportion of the population not previously involved in law enforcement encourages crime or you don't.

So which is it?

Another direct question. You stated above that in the UK the penalty for resisting a burglar is greater than the penalty for burgling someone's house. What evidence have you got for this assertion? Can you give real-life examples to support your contention?

Offline Toad

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Whats going on in Canada?
« Reply #159 on: January 06, 2006, 10:51:19 AM »
:)

Quote
I get your meaning quite clearly.


Finally. I think about everyone else had it first go round. I think it would be up to you to clip quotes and clearly show where I had said anything contrary to that previously.

I suspect it was vague only to you; I doubt it was vague to very many others.


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So which is it?


I thought you just said "I get your meaning quite clearly"? So which is it?

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You stated above that in the UK the penalty for resisting a burglar


No, I didn't. Go back and read it again.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline lazs2

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Whats going on in Canada?
« Reply #160 on: January 06, 2006, 10:51:43 AM »
first of all.... momus... you are indeed wrong if you think that the gun ban for handguns will guarentee that no massacre ever happens again...  

I will explaing it logicaly for you.   In all the gun bans that have been enacted it has been pretty much a proven fact that not more than 20% of all the handguns in england have been turned in.   It is a fact that any criminal in england can "rent" a firearm from another criminal.  

With a few hundred thousand handguns stashed away and more being smuggled in.... How will any law guarentee you imunity from murderous criminals and from the insane?   You have one massacre that even you admit is rare and then make a gun ban and claim that the problem of insane people is over?  that all guns are now gone from your country?  that never the two (insane and guns) shall ever meet again?  that is beyond silly...

some nut is gonna find grandpa's webley stashed in the sock drawer soon enough and use it.   You can't prevent it.   And why should you try?

Beet is right... you are different than us...  even without firearms we kill at 2-3 times the rate you do.  as your country dies....you will see an increase tho.  

Beet is right that you don't want guns...  You have never had a tradition of them and your people are far more subservient and less individualistic.   You have more respect for your government than we do and trust it much more.  

when you had no gun control and....up till recently you had no shotgun control at all...  you had the same rate of homicides as you have now...  A shotgun is the most deadly close quarters weapon there is..... yet... you had no restrictions at all on them until recently in the 20th century..  

By your logic... if there had been one mass shotgun killing before your new shotgun laws... you could now claim that the new laws had prevented all new massacres.   There are millions of these deadly weapons in your country.

A very good book for those interested in the various countries and their gun control is "The samouri, The Mounty and the Cowboy"  by Koppel.

It is a little outdated now (our homicide and crime rate has dropped since '92 and we have removed some gun laws) but the historical stuff is still good...

Even in '92 tho the black homicide rate was 34 per 100k compared to 3 per 100k for non hispanic whites.   It is a little less for whites now.  

lazs

Offline Toad

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Whats going on in Canada?
« Reply #161 on: January 06, 2006, 10:57:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
It's not just ME.
[/b]

Indeed, sir, that is the focus of our discussion.

I ask again, how do you justify your support of the handgun ban/firearms restrictions whilst remaining totally unsupportive of banning alcohol, all with respect to your country?

Is your support of the various firearms restrictions based on saving lives or not? If not, why DO you support it? Because "most people want it"? What?

Is your failure to support a similar ban on alcohol based upon the fact that most people "don't want it" even though it would save more lives than any amount of firearms restrictions?

Again, it's my belief that your opposition/support of these issues comes down to a simple matter of whose ox is being gored. Show me this is not so.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Momus--

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Whats going on in Canada?
« Reply #162 on: January 06, 2006, 11:40:37 AM »
Thanks Toad, I'll take that refusal to elaborate further on your previous statements as an admission that you can't actually do so despite being afforded repeated opportunities. I'll leave you and Beet to your mutual trolling now.

Offline beet1e

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Whats going on in Canada?
« Reply #163 on: January 06, 2006, 12:12:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
I ask again, how do you justify your support of the handgun ban/firearms restrictions whilst remaining totally unsupportive of banning alcohol, all with respect to your country?
The reason you have to ask again is because you didn't read my answer the first time. I've already explained it. ^ As you didn't get it the first time, here it is again:
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Alcohol. I have given some reasons why alcohol is not banned. The US example in the years 1926-1933 shows what happens if alcohol is banned. The problem is driven underground, and alcohol supply becomes controlled by organised crime. Not only that, but a huge swathe of the economy (restaurants, pubs, hotels) would be affected. With France just ~20 miles off the Kent coast, there would be fleets of small craft importing it. I'm sure the police could be bought off to look the other way when the boat comes in. In short, it wouldn't work. Alcohol IS banned in strict muslim countries like Saudi Arabia, but even the saudis realised that the foreign workers who live in compounds off limits to the indigenous population had to be allowed alcohol. In Qatar, with its large (75%) expat population, they realised there was no way of maintaining an alcohol ban, so now the expats who live there can get a liquor licence and a well stocked sideboard of booze.
Quote
Is your support of the various firearms restrictions based on saving lives or not? If not, why DO you support it? Because "most people want it"? What?
YES. Surely you know this much, after all the gun threads we've had? As Nashwan once put it, making tools available which are specifically designed for killing people is "a bit silly". The homicide stats around the world bear witness to this.
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Is your failure to support a similar ban on alcohol based upon the fact that most people "don't want it" even though it would save more lives than any amount of firearms restrictions?
No. Refer to the self quote above. It's true that most people wouldn't want it, but that's not the only reason I wouldn't want to see it. We saw what happened when the US tried to ban alcohol in the years 1926-33.




Now let me ask YOU some questions: 1) Do you support the continued legalised sale of alcoholic liquor in the US? 2) DO you support the legalisation of class A drugs like heroin in the US?

Offline Ripsnort

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Whats going on in Canada?
« Reply #164 on: January 06, 2006, 01:45:00 PM »
Alcohol kills 33,000 people in the UK each year. BAN IT! The subjects cannot be trusted with alcohol! ;)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/hottopics/alcohol/