Author Topic: Another View of Islam (long)  (Read 1263 times)

Offline Toad

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Another View of Islam (long)
« on: October 03, 2001, 11:34:00 PM »
Presented for discussion; neither endorsed nor denounced.

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Relentlessly and Thoroughly”
The only way to respond.

By Paul Johnson, a historian and journalist whose forthcoming book is a history of art.

From the October 15, 2001, issue of National Review
 
 
 
Bold and uncompromising words were spoken by American (and British) leaders in the immediate response to the Manhattan Massacre. But they may be succeeded by creeping appeasement unless public opinion insists that these leaders stick to their initial resolve to destroy international terrorism completely. One central reason why appeasement is so tempting to Western governments is that attacking terrorism at its roots necessarily involves conflict with the second-largest religious community in the world.

It is widely said that Islamic terrorists are wholly unorthodox in their belief that their religion sanctions what they do, and promises the immediate reward of heaven to what we call "suicide bombers" but they insist are martyrs to the faith. This line is bolstered by the assertion that Islam is essentially a religion of peace and that the very word "Islam" means "peace." Alas, not so. Islam means "submission," a very different matter, and one of the functions of Islam, in its more militant aspect, is to obtain that submission from all, if necessary by force.

Islam is an imperialist religion, more so than Christianity has ever been, and in contrast to Judaism. The Koran, Sura 5, verse 85, describes the inevitable enmity between Moslems and non-Moslems: "Strongest among men in enmity to the Believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans." Sura 9, verse 5, adds: "Then fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them. And seize them, beleaguer them and lie in wait for them, in every strategem [of war]." Then nations, however mighty, the Koran insists, must be fought "until they embrace Islam."

These canonical commands cannot be explained away or softened by modern theological exegesis, because there is no such science in Islam. Unlike Christianity, which, since the Reformation and Counter Reformation, has continually updated itself and adapted to changed conditions, and unlike Judaism, which has experienced what is called the 18th-century Jewish enlightenment, Islam remains a religion of the Dark Ages. The 7th-century Koran is still taught as the immutable word of God, any teaching of which is literally true. In other words, mainstream Islam is essentially akin to the most extreme form of Biblical fundamentalism. It is true it contains many sects and tendencies, quite apart from the broad division between Sunni Moslems, the majority, who are comparatively moderate and include most of the ruling families of the Gulf, and Shia Moslems, far more extreme, who dominate Iran. But virtually all these tendencies are more militant and uncompromising than the orthodox, which is moderate only by comparison, and by our own standards is extreme. It believes, for instance, in a theocratic state, ruled by religious law, inflicting (as in Saudi Arabia) grotesquely cruel punishments, which were becoming obsolete in Western Europe in the early Middle Ages.

Moreover, Koranic teaching that the faith or "submission" can be, and in suitable circumstances must be, imposed by force, has never been ignored. On the contrary, the history of Islam has essentially been a history of conquest and reconquest. The 7th-century "breakout" of Islam from Arabia was followed by the rapid conquest of North Africa, the invasion and virtual conquest of Spain, and a thrust into France that carried the crescent to the gates of Paris. It took half a millennium of reconquest to expel the Moslems from Western Europe. The Crusades, far from being an outrageous prototype of Western imperialism, as is taught in most of our schools, were a mere episode in a struggle that has lasted 1,400 years, and were one of the few occasions when Christians took the offensive to regain the "occupied territories" of the Holy Land.

The Crusades, as it happened, fatally weakened the Greek Orthodox Byzantine Empire, the main barrier to the spread of Islam into southeast and central Europe. As a result of the fall of Constantinople to the ultramilitant Ottoman Sultans, Islam took over the entire Balkans, and was threatening to capture Vienna and move into the heart of Europe as recently as the 1680s.

This millennial struggle continues in a variety of ways. The recent conflicts in Bosnia and Kosovo were a savage reaction by the Orthodox Christians of Serbia to the spread of Islam in their historic heartlands, chiefly by virtue of a higher birthrate. Indeed, in the West, the battle is largely demographic, though it is likely to take a more militant turn at any moment. Moslems from the Balkans and North Africa are surging over established frontiers on a huge scale, rather as the pressure of the eastern tribes brought about the collapse of the Roman Empire of the West in the 4th and 5th centuries A.D. The number of Moslems penetrating and settling in Europe is now beyond computation because most of them are illegals. They are getting into Spain and Italy in such numbers that, should present trends continue, both these traditionally Catholic countries will become majority Moslem during the 21st century.

The West is not alone in being under threat from Islamic expansion. While the Ottomans moved into South-East Europe, the Moghul invasion of India destroyed much of Hindu and Buddhist civilization there. The recent destruction by Moslems in Afghanistan of colossal Buddhist statues is a reminder of what happened to temples and shrines, on an enormous scale, when Islam took over. The writer V. S. Naipaul has recently pointed out that the destructiveness of the Moslem Conquest is at the root of India's appalling poverty today. Indeed, looked at historically, the record shows that Moslem rule has tended both to promote and to perpetuate poverty. Meanwhile, the religion of "submission" continues to advance, as a rule by force, in Africa in part of Nigeria and Sudan, and in Asia, notably in Indonesia, where non-Moslems are given the choice of conversion or death. And in all countries where Islamic law is applied, converts, whether compulsory or not, who revert to their earlier faith, are punished by death.

The survival and expansion of militant Islam in the 20th century came as a surprise. After the First World War, many believed that Turkey, where the Kemal Ataturk regime imposed secularization by force, would set the pattern for the future, and that Islam would at last be reformed and modernized. Though secularism has — so far — survived in Turkey, in the rest of Islam fundamentalism, or orthodoxy, as it is more properly called, has increased its grip on both the rulers and the masses. There are at present 18 predominantly Islamic states, some of them under Koranic law and all ruled by groups that have good reason to fear extremists.

Hence American policymakers, in planning to uproot Islamic terrorism once and for all, have to steer a narrow path. They have the military power to do what they want, but they need a broad-based global coalition to back their action, preferably with military contributions as well as words, and ideally including such states as Pakistan, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt. To get this kind of support is not easy, for moderate Moslem rulers are far more frightened of the terrorists than of Americans, and fear for their lives and families. The danger is that they will insist on qualification of American action that will amount, in effect, to appeasement, and that this in turn will divide and weaken both the administration and U.S. public opinion.

It is vitally important that America stick to the essentials of its military response and carry it through relentlessly and thoroughly. Although only Britain can be guaranteed to back the White House in every contingency, it is better in the long run for America to act without many allies, or even alone, than to engage in a messy compromise dictated by nervousness and cowardice. That would be the worst of all solutions and would be certain to lead to more terrorism, in more places, and on an ever-increasing scale. Now is the ideal moment for the United States to use all its physical capacity to eliminate large-scale international terrorism. The cause is overwhelmingly just, the nation is united, the hopes of decent, law-abiding men and women everywhere go with American arms. Such a moment may never recur.

The great William Gladstone, in resisting terrorism, once used the phrase, "The resources of civilisation are not yet exhausted." That is true today. Those resources are largely in American hands, and the nation — "the last, best hope of mankind" — has an overwhelming duty to use them with purposeful justification and to the full, in the defense of the lives, property, and freedom of all of us. This is the central point to keep in mind when the weasel words of cowardice and surrender are pronounced.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Hangtime

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Another View of Islam (long)
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2001, 11:50:00 PM »
Quote
It is vitally important that America stick to the essentials of its military response and carry it through relentlessly and thoroughly.  

With this point, I wholeheartedly concur.

We've spent the last 50 years building the most powerful swift and sure swords ever seen..  we need to use them, as required to the extent required, where required; without remorse. Up to and including "Unscheduled Sunrise".

The longer we wait, the harder it will be; the more it will cost us, not the least of that cost, lives in ALL parts of the world.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline easymo

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Another View of Islam (long)
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2001, 12:13:00 AM »
" Although only Britain can be guaranteed to back the White House in every contingency"

  Aint it the truth.  Thank God for our British cousins.

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2001, 12:49:00 AM »
Been trying to make the point the author is doing about Islam for quite some time here in Dk, but have been labelled a racist almost every time.

I'm not a racist. I'm not even a religion-ist. If anything, I'm a culture-ist.

Offline Naso

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« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2001, 08:00:00 AM »
Quote
Originally pasted by Toad:
"the last, best hope of mankind"

Dont you find this sentence a little bit arrogant?

I mean, this sound like the things a strange little man with small moustaches and a strange cross on the flag was used to say before causing some millions of deaths

Think about it  ;)

Offline ispar

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« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2001, 08:08:00 AM »
The entire thing is rather arrogant.

Offline Udie

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« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2001, 08:42:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by StSanta:
Been trying to make the point the author is doing about Islam for quite some time here in Dk, but have been labelled a racist almost every time.

I'm not a racist. I'm not even a religion-ist. If anything, I'm a culture-ist.

 Still waring that black leather and pink lace underware?  :D

Offline batdog

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« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2001, 08:55:00 AM »
Something of note: What religion produces the most international terrorists...?


xBAT
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

AKDejaVu

Offline Naso

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« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2001, 09:26:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by batdog:
Something of note: What religion produces the most international terrorists...?


xBAT

At the moment, in the 20th century, or for all times?

Including politics or just religion?

Sometime I have the feeling (hope I'm wrong) that the Right-side of US culture NEED an enemy to survive.  :(

Before was Communism, now (because of a little group of SOBs ) is the whole Islam  :eek:

Offline batdog

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« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2001, 09:35:00 AM »
Naaa... If you've read my posts you'll even see one somewhere about how viewing ALL followers of Islam as extermists to be wrong.

 I'm just pointing out that for SOME REASON quite a few radicals with a martyr complex seem to come from that faith lately.

 Why is this?

xBAT
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

AKDejaVu

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2001, 11:55:00 AM »
The article makes some interesting points, but there's a veneer of pro-Chirstian bias throughout the entire thing. It quotes Koran verse in a context it implies cannot be applied to the Christian bible. I'm not so sure of that.

 
Quote
Although only Britain can be guaranteed to back the White House in every contingency...

A statement of outright arrogance that is worth nowt. Britain is a democratic, sovereign State - the US will not get a 'blank cheque' when it comes to policy decisions.

I also disagree with the author's stand-point on the military response. Military action, while making good copy and engrossing TV, is only a single tool against terrorism. In particular, Islamic terrorism as it stands cannot be defeated with military might alone. What's another death or day without food to Bin Laden's supporters? The main target should be banks, fund raisers and the other pseudo-legal businesses used to lend credibility to terrorists.

[ 10-04-2001: Message edited by: Dowding ]
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2001, 03:49:00 PM »
I just posted it for discussion.

I've been doing more reading on Islam and I found this an interesting counterpoint. Most of the articles I find stress the "peaceful" aspect. Not nearly as many that take this view.

As I said, I'm neither endorsing nor denouncing.

Particularly, as you can see by the thread title, I'd hoped to see the discussion center on the religion itself vice particular statements about the political or military aspects of the campaign against terrorists.

In short... is the non-Islamic world going to be faced with "submission" eventually? Or will Islam modify its harsh view of non-belivers.

For example, I'm still looking and waiting to hear/read of some of the most important Islamic clerics stand up and say out loud for all the world to hear:

"Bin Laden is an abomination. True Muslims will not support him. Islam abhors those that support him or would be like him."

I've heard that from a few minor US Islamic clerics. Nothing from the supervisory clerics at the holiest shrines of Islam, Medina and Mecca....

Still waiting... or is Johnson correct? Has Islam not changed at all since the 7th century?

[ 10-04-2001: Message edited by: Toad ]
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Ghosth

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« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2001, 03:51:00 PM »
This may be totally off the wall, off topic, and out of place. But it is my strong belief that we will not win against terrorism until

A: Every man woman & child on the planet can go to sleep with a full belly.

B Every man woman and child has shelter and the basic neccessity's of life.

Until everyone has their BASIC needs met, terrorists will find recruits anywhere there are hungry, disatisfied people.

Want to attack terrorism? Attack Poverty!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2001, 04:03:00 PM »
Ghosth,

I agree with that.

However, who was it who said "the poor you will always have with you.."?

For how many centuries have some of these countries been at or below the subsistence level?

All "bad luck"? or is not that simple?

Still, the attempt has to be made. I'm just not sure it can be done.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Gadfly

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« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2001, 04:49:00 PM »
Too bad that most terrorists are from middle class or wealthy families, eh?  Kinda blows that theory to hell doesn't it?