Author Topic: Another View of Islam (long)  (Read 1267 times)

Offline Ghosth

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« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2001, 08:27:00 AM »
The Leaders Perhaps, Bader gang in Germany yes.

Show me where Atta & the other WTC terrorists are from wealthy or middle class homes!

Fact remains its a LOT harder to get people to comit suicide when they have a full belly & know they will have tomorrow also!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2001, 09:05:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ghosth:
Show me where Atta & the other WTC terrorists are from wealthy or middle class homes!

Well, let's start with Atta then.


 http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101011008-176917,00.html


Atta's Odyssey
How a shy, well-educated young Egyptian became a suspected ringleader of the Sept. 11 attacks. The mystery begins to unfold in Germany
BY JOHN CLOUD


"In Egypt, where Atta grew up, his family and friends describe a shy, unassuming young man who struggled to make his mark. They say he must have undergone a stark personality change to become the terrorist who supervised Sept. 11. Born in Kafr El Sheikh, a city on the Nile delta, Mohamed was the son of a lawyer and a homemaker....Atta seemed overshadowed by his two sisters, who rose to become a zoology professor and a medical doctor. Atta graduated from Cairo University with a degree in architectural engineering and was an average student, according to his peers....

Cairo is one of the world's most crowded, impoverished cities, and by the early '90s, Atta felt the intense pressures on middle-class Egyptians not to slip in social rank."


Not exactly the starving goatherd, eh?

...and still.. yes, let's help them, I agree.

But what does it say about folks that still dig their cesspits deeper than their wells?

The idea of not sh*tt*ng in your water hasn't been a "closely held secret" for the last 1000 years.

You can only help people that WANT to be helped. If some folks think the society prescribed by an unchanged 7th century religious text is the "best possible world", perhaps help is impossible.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Gadfly

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« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2001, 09:31:00 AM »
Explain the poor countries that do not generate terrorists in light of your theory.

Idealogoy is what generates terrorists, not lack of anything.

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2001, 04:13:00 PM »
I agree 100% Ghosth.

But ideology and poverty/descrimination breed militant attitudes, which leads to terrorism. Northern Ireland, Algeria, Palestine are all examples.

Gadfly - name one terrorist organisation that operates without recruiting from a poor or badly treated sector of the society it originates from.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Gadfly

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« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2001, 08:03:00 AM »
Badly treated is not poor.  Hell, I am badly treated every day at work.

You explain to me how an uneducated peasant can travel the world without drawing attention to himself, much less accomplish his mission.

Offline Gadfly

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« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2001, 06:20:00 PM »
"In the latest attack, a 17-year-old Islamic Jihad supporter blew himself up Sunday near an Israeli car, killing himself and the Israeli driver"-AP

There is your poor, uneducated "terrorist", I worry about his type as much as I do a mugging from a poor uneducated American thug, i.e. not at all.

Offline Broes

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« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2001, 07:41:00 AM »
Ever read the Old Testament and what God did to non-believers? The New Testament was only written after God talked to his PR manager.

Broes

Offline Naso

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« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2001, 09:16:00 AM »
ROTFL Broes

Hey, someone call the FBI, Gadfly is badly treated at work, it's a possible recruit for terrorism!  ;)

Offline -lynx-

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« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2001, 09:32:00 AM »
Quote
I agree 100% Ghosth
Bollocks. Simple as that.

Who led the Russian Revolution in early 1900s? Poor? Hungry? BS - very  well educated, well off, bored out of their skull or failing to make the mark in any other way amongst their peers. They agitated, brainwashed, financed and finally led millions of "poor and starving" to replace the "opressors" with them-very-f***ing-selves, screwing a great country "while they were at it" just for the hell of it.

OBL? Is a millionnaire, son of a multi-millionnaire etc. Others? See above. It's the followers who are easily found amongst unemployed/hungry etc - in many cases they've nothing else to do.

You guys remind me of my lecturers in Scientific Communism (yep, that was the name of a compulsory university course and one had to pass it too  :)) 20 years ago who failed to convince me the it was "the poor and hungry" who started the whole thing in Russia - they used the same arguments too... Hmmmm?   ;)

[ 10-09-2001: Message edited by: -lynx- ]

Offline Toad

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« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2001, 09:59:00 AM »
I think the point the author made is that at least there is a "revised" New Testament.

The Koran has never been "revised", "updated", "softened" or anything else.

In short, Islam still operates under an "old testament".
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Naso

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« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2001, 10:13:00 AM »
it's true Toad, good point.

Wait, the hebrews (jews? what is the PC name to use? we use "Ebrei") operate under an unchanged Old Testament too?

Israel have the death penalty?

Someone know about this? I'm courious.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2001, 01:09:00 PM »
Naso, only going on what is in this article.

"Unlike Christianity, which, since the Reformation and Counter Reformation, has continually updated itself and adapted to changed conditions, and unlike Judaism, which has experienced what is called the 18th-century Jewish enlightenment, Islam remains a religion of the Dark Ages. The 7th-century Koran is still taught as the immutable word of God, any teaching of which is literally true.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2001, 08:44:00 AM »
This guy may have described it much more closely to the way I feel.


 http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/281/oped/The_deep_roots_of_terrorism+.shtml


"The deep roots of terrorism


By H.D.S. Greenway, 10/8/2001

ORE THAN 30 years ago, when the shah of Iran was trying to modernize and Westernize his county by his ''white revolution,'' dissidents would whisper that their shah, through measures such as land reform and education for women, was undermining traditional society and affronting Islam. A few years later, among the Afghan refugees on the northwest frontier of Pakistan, armed men ready to die for their cause would tell you what it was they hated most about the communist government in Kabul. ''The communists came to our village,'' one holy warrior told me. ''They said we had to put our girls in school and that they no longer had to cover their heads!''


Today both the shah's hopes for a modern, Western-oriented Iran and the communist hopes for a modern, socialist Afghanistan lie in the dustbin of history. If there is a common thread to link their failures, it is that they were both wrecked upon the rocks of resistance to change. Things that both communists and capitalists could agree upon - and education for women is only one example - were seen as a threat not only to Islam but to traditional ways of life. Indeed, in many Islamic countries there is no separation of mosque and state. And so today, both countries, although bitter enemies, are theocracies that have turned their backs on the modernization (read Westernization) of the world.


Rapid change and the feelings of being powerless and left behind in an evolving world have driven hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, to seek solace in religion, and some to violence in the name of religion. It helps explain what motivated 19 young men to destroy themselves and so many Americans on Sept. 11.


Fouad Ajami of Johns Hopkins University wrote years ago that since the 1920s, ''Muslim cults ... have looked at the defiled world around them - wild cities, shocking cultural trends, foreigners with alien ways, subjugation to the outsiders, a world that seems to be perpetually in crisis, young men and women who have strayed from time-honored ways - and have felt at one time or another the urge to destroy or the urge to withdraw and escape.'' Since the end of the Cold War and the beginning of globalization, America has emerged as the symbol of everything that has gone wrong for them.


Many Muslims go back to their religious roots because their societies have not given them any answers. Western secularism, Marxism, nationalism have all, in their view, let them down. They look at their own rulers as corrupt, hypocritical sellers of their country to Western (read American) interests. The vast majority are nonviolent and lead constructive lives. Only a very few turn to terror.


Fundamentalism is not restricted to Muslim countries. Hindu fundamentalism is a rising force in India, nibbling away at the secular India of Jawaharlal Nehru, and violence in the name of their gods threatens the stability of more than one Indian state. Israel, too, has seen a rise of Jewish fundamentalism in recent years, disapproving of the mostly secular state that the founding generation of Zionists created. Most relgious Jews are peaceful, but a few fanatics have shown their willingness to resort to violence in God's name. There can be little doubt that Yitzhak Rabin was murdered because he promised, or threatened, depending on your point of view, change.


Some 15 years ago, a Kuwaiti political scientist, Khaldoun al Nagueb, said to me: ''I wonder if, in its nonviolent form, what we are experiencing in the Arab world is not a bit similar to what Jerry Falwell preaches and the rise of militant Protestantism in your own country.'' And today we have Falwell saying that secular sin opened the United States to terrorism.


Even in our own country, the fearful, confused, left-behinds in our society turn to militia movements in their fear of a changing world in which they see themselves as losers. They may not be religious, but they see conspiracies everywhere, and if the secular terrorist, Timothy McVeigh, and the religiously motivated suicide pilots of September have anything in common, it was their need to destroy symbols of American power and authority.


An Egyptian scholar, Saad Ibrihim, once said that the profile of a typical Islamic fundamentalist would be ''young, at least partially educated, a high achiever, lower middle class, from a small rural town, rural background but now lost in a big city. They may graduate from universities but they are often shocked and dazzled by city life. They are not rewarded. They do not get what they perceive to be their fair share. They are repelled by corruption and lasciviousness.''


And who is responsible for their misfortune? Those in power in their individual countries, often. But who has corrupted their leaders? What is the font of everything they half envy and half fear? The United States of America, or so they believe.


As much as we may object to keeping girls out of school, neither this nor being forced to wear beards, nor banning television, for which President Bush scolded the Taliban, is a casus belli. Harboring terrorists is. And now that bombs are falling, we should make it clear that our target is terrorism, not customs and values we do not share. Rapid change can be destabilizing. We should not make the same mistake as the shah and the communists in trying, in Rudyard Kipling's words, to ''hustle the East.''


H.D.S. Greenway's column appears regularly in the Globe.


This story ran on page A15 of the Boston Globe on 10/8/2001."
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2001, 03:06:00 PM »
http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/africa/10/15/attack.nigeria.reut/index.html


Troops shoot rioters in Nigeria

"Nigeria is grappling with a rising wave of ethnic or religious bloodshed in which well over 2,000 people have died since army rule ended in Africa's most populous nation in 1999.

The introduction of strict Islamic sharia law in parts of predominantly Muslim northern Nigeria, despite opposition from non-Muslims, triggered violence early last year.

But the sharia crisis appears to have only compounded historical ethnic and regional rivalries blamed for a devastating civil war in the late 1960s in which more than a million people died.

Hundreds of people died in Muslim-Christian fighting in the central city of Jos last month and police are battling ethnic unrest in three other northern states."


I wonder if this is the future.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!