Author Topic: NYT better get Lawered up...  (Read 2187 times)

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2005, 11:40:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
Just because you say it does not make it true.


Well, if the pres admits to it, is it true?
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2005, 11:48:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
Well, if the pres admits to it, is it true?


I have yet to hear the president say the NSA program was unconstitutional.

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2005, 11:57:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
I have yet to hear the president say the NSA program was unconstitutional.


The NSA is for foreign intel, not domestic
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2005, 12:17:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
The NSA is for foreign intel, not domestic


And?

Offline Rotax447

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« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2005, 12:25:13 PM »
POTUS is going to lose this one.  Let’s think like a lawyer for a minute.  At $200 an hour, I can’t afford more than a minutes worth of thought.

The 4th Amendment uses the term “unreasonable searches.”  Under our Constitution, Congress and SCOTUS clearly have the power to legislate, or interprete, what constitutes an “unreasonable search.”  Congress used it’s Article I authority to legislate in 1978, when they established the FISA Court, and required a warrant be issued for wiretaps.

POTUS, based upon three arguments, chooses to ignore the clear legislative of Congress.  

1) Congress granted him emergency powers after the 911 attack.  True, but Congress each and every year has granted every POTUS since Roosevelt II those same powers.  Nixon found that those emergency powers clearly do not grant the power to spy and wiretap on opposition candidates.

2) We are at war.  Close, but not quite right.  We are under a “State of Emergency,” and have been every year since 1932.  Congress has chosen not to use it’s Article I powers to declare that a state of war exists.

3) POTUS under the Article II “Commander in Chief” clause, has the power to suspend or ignore laws passed by Congress under it’s Article I powers.  POTUS is now claming plenary powers to suspend or ignore whatever laws he deems necessary, for as long as he deems necessary.  Under Article II of the Constitution, that plenary power simply does not exist.

SCOTUS has ruled that when the legislative intent is clear, courts shall not interprete the law.  Does anyone seriously believe that SCOTUS will grant this power, in a plenary and in perpetuity from, to POTUS?

Offline john9001

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« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2005, 12:25:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn

Cripes, Al Qaeda might be able to take some lives, but they can't take your freedom.  


i thought you were from Canada not Scotland. :)

---------------------------------------------------------------------
why is the media calling the wiretaps "secret"? When were there ever non-secret wiretaps?


"hey al capon, we gona tap your phone lines, ok?"
« Last Edit: December 31, 2005, 12:28:23 PM by john9001 »

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2005, 12:47:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
why is the media calling the wiretaps "secret"? When were there ever non-secret wiretaps?


"hey al capon, we gona tap your phone lines, ok?"


lol, yeah, Nixon's thoughts too
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2005, 12:48:03 PM »
Rotax,

 Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347. Katz involved the warrantless interception of a conversation held by a criminal defendant in a phone booth. The Court held that the Fourth Amendment applies to such conversations, and that in an ordinary criminal prosecution (subject to many exceptions, as noted above) a warrant is required for wiretap information to be admissible in court. The Court specifically noted, however, that its decision did not apply to situations involving national security:
Quote
Whether safeguards other than prior authorization by a magistrate would satisfy the Fourth Amendment in a situation involving the national security is a question not presented by this case.


United States v. United States District Court, 407 U.S. 297 (1972). This case arose out of a criminal prosecution for conspiracy to destroy government property. (One of the defendants was charged with dynamiting a Michigan office of the C.I.A.) The Court's majority opinion framed the issue as follows:

Quote
[This case] involves the delicate question of the President's power, acting through the Attorney General, to authorize electronic surveillance in internal security matters without prior judicial approval.


[Emphasis added.] While acknowledging that American governments had conducted warrantless surveillance in internal security cases "for more than one-quarter of a century," the Court held such surveillance unconstitutional under the circumstances presented.

For the present purpose, the relevant portions of the opinion are those that distinguish the case before the Court from cases involving foreign intelligence gathering:
Quote

[T]he instant case requires no judgment on the scope of the President's surveillance power with respect to the activities of foreign powers, within or without this country.

We emphasize, before concluding this opinion, the scope of our decision. As stated at the outset, this case involves only the domestic aspects of national security. We have not addressed, and express no opinion as to, the issues which may be involved with respect to activities of foreign powers or their agents.


The third relevant Supreme Court case is Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, 542 U.S. 507 (2004). Hamdi was an American citizen who was captured on the battlefield in Afghanistan and sued the Defense Department, claiming that his indefinite detention as an enemy combatant was unconstitutional. The Court upheld Hamdi's detention, while also ruling that he was entitled to a limited hearing regarding the facts of his detention. The government offered alternative theories in support of Hamdi's detention; the Court's plurality opinion describes them as follows:

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The Government maintains that no explicit congressional authorization is required, because the Executive possesses plenary authority to detain pursuant to Article II of the Constitution. We do not reach the question whether Article II provides such authority, however, because we agree with the Government's alternative position, that Congress has in fact authorized Hamdi's detention through the AUMF [the post-September 11 Authorization for the Use of Military Force].

We conclude that detention of individuals falling into the limited category we are considering, for the duration of the particular conflict in which they were captured, is so fundamental and accepted an incident to war as to be an exercise of the "necessary and appropriate force" Congress has authorized the President to use.



Thus, neither the language of the Constitution nor the Supreme Court’s jurisprudence can justify a claim that the NSA program is illegal. While the Court has never specifically ruled on the issue, its decisions are entirely consistent with the administration's view that the President has the inherent constitutional authority to obtain foreign intelligence information through warrantless searches. We turn now to the decisions of the federal Courts of Appeal.



 United States v. [Cassius] Clay, 430 F.2d 165 (5th Cir. 1970).


Quote
The fifth wiretap was not disclosed to defendant because the District Court found that the surveillance was lawful, having been authorized by the Attorney General, for the purpose of obtaining foreign intelligence information. The Supreme Court has not yet decided whether electronic surveillance for the purpose of obtaining foreign intelligence information is constitutionally permissible [citation omitted], though Mr. Justice White has expressed the view that such surveillance does not violate the Fourth Amendment. [citation omitted]
We…discern no constitutional prohibition against the fifth wiretap. Section 605 of Title 47, U.S.C., is a general prohibition against publication or use of communications obtained by wiretapping, but we do not read the section as forbidding the President, or his representative, from ordering wiretap surveillance to obtain foreign intelligence in the national interest.



There's more but I gotta go.  I think the president has a case.  The FISA court cannot limit his constitutional powers nore can he limit theirs.

There's more on the provisions of FISA here:
http://powerlineblog.com/archives/012631.php
« Last Edit: December 31, 2005, 01:11:39 PM by Gunslinger »

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2005, 12:48:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
And?


And why would you need to wiretap someone in the US that has nothing to do with terrorism?
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2005, 01:10:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
And why would you need to wiretap someone in the US that has nothing to do with terrorism?


I'm still searching for a relevence here Six......who has said anything about wiretaps of non-terrorism related issues?  Those would require a warrent but that's what the issue is about.

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2005, 01:20:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
I'm still searching for a relevence here Six......who has said anything about wiretaps of non-terrorism related issues?  Those would require a warrent but that's what the issue is about.


Right, but how do we know who they are listening to if there is no record of it? Again, why would you need to bypass the fisa court?
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline weaselsan

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« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2005, 01:31:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
And why would you need to wiretap someone in the US that has nothing to do with terrorism?


I didn't know they filled you in personally on who they where "wiretapping" fill us in please....

Offline weaselsan

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« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2005, 01:49:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
Right, but how do we know who they are listening to if there is no record of it? Again, why would you need to bypass the fisa court?




a. These are not criminal investigations, in all likelyhood information gleaned from these wiretaps will not be used in a court of law. So the liberals won't have to worry about constitutional concerns. Information from these will be passed to other countries that have, shall we say, a little less concern for civil rights than we do. They know how to get information.

b. The terrorists will use creative means to prevent eavesdropping. They may switch phones in the middle of a conversation several times. Each phone number must have a fisa ok. They may change people several times each with a different part of the instructions. The individual being tapped is also a seperate part.

c. Congressional leaders where advised on all 30 odd times this was used, including democrats.

d. I hope some day that no ones loved ones are killed or maimed by a suicide bomber that had there civil rights protected all the way to point of detonation.

Offline weaselsan

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« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2005, 01:51:13 PM »
The purpose of lawering up at the NYT will be attempting to keep the reporters out of jail for refusing to devulge their sources.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2005, 01:55:27 PM by weaselsan »

Offline weaselsan

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« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2005, 02:02:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
Funny, but I think the people who leaked the info are the ones who are in deep doo doo. The NYT can still print the truth whenever it wants to. Unfortunately (for this administration) freedom of the press is right up there with speech and assembly.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."


Another sucker that thinks the Constitution is a valid document. Dood pay attention, the SCOTUS interprets what that means. You simply can't take the document literally. All that has been changed.

But for your information the NYT will be forced to cough up their sources. Thus the need to lawer up. Won't matter...jail time till they do.