Author Topic: NYT better get Lawered up...  (Read 2223 times)

Offline Shamus

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3580
NYT better get Lawered up...
« Reply #60 on: January 02, 2006, 11:06:42 AM »
Yes Rotax I did, I even voted for Nixon, man was I disappointed in the guy.

I am far more troubled today due to the technology available.

I dare say that had Clinton been caught doing the same thing as Bush, the senate would have convicted, and I would have been cheering all the while.

We seem to be shifting to a county of men rather than laws. You dont trust or hope that the POTUS is going to do right thing. you force him thru checks and balance to, and when he decides to avoid those checks and balances that should be a red flag.

shamus
one of the cats

FSO Jagdgeschwader 11

Offline NUKE

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8599
      • Arizona Greens
NYT better get Lawered up...
« Reply #61 on: January 02, 2006, 11:30:01 AM »
So you guys are upset that some phone calls by known terrorists groups and their friends, originating  from OUTSIDE of the US are being monitored?

The program was and has been constantly reviewed and approved by members from both sides of Congress as well.

It's a good thing not to have to get approval for a national security, top secret program from a panel of knitwit, p.c. judges.

The person/persons who leaked this should be executed.

Offline Red Tail 444

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2497
      • http://www.redtail.org
NYT better get Lawered up...
« Reply #62 on: January 02, 2006, 11:39:48 AM »
Welcome to the KGB, American Style.

The blindness of the "our POTUS can do no wrong" crowd is laughable, if it weren't so damned pathetic.

Genuflecting before this PO--S, while his cronies go up your bellybutton with any form of information gathering technology they choose to employ at their discretion is exactly what I thought American values were steadfastly against.

Or, do I owe you an apology?

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/salem/SALEM.HTM

Offline Shamus

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3580
NYT better get Lawered up...
« Reply #63 on: January 02, 2006, 11:43:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
So you guys are upset that some phone calls by known terrorists groups and their friends, originating  from OUTSIDE of the US are being monitored?

The program was and has been constantly reviewed and approved by members from both sides of Congress as well.

It's a good thing not to have to get approval for a national security, top secret program from a panel of knitwit, p.c. judges.

The person/persons who leaked this should be executed.


Well there you go, I sure cant argue with that logic. Question though, how do you know that all the calls were by known terrorists?

Oh and btw all the calls did not originate OUTSIDE the U.S., you must have missed that news

shamus
one of the cats

FSO Jagdgeschwader 11

Offline Red Tail 444

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2497
      • http://www.redtail.org
NYT better get Lawered up...
« Reply #64 on: January 02, 2006, 11:46:05 AM »
...Oh you got the wrong email? Talked to the wrong guy on the street for directions?
 someone dialed the wrong number? walked by Falafel King on the way to the gym?

Pissed off the wrong business man?

You're screwed :)

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/salem/accused%21.html

Offline NUKE

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8599
      • Arizona Greens
NYT better get Lawered up...
« Reply #65 on: January 02, 2006, 12:52:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shamus
Well there you go, I sure cant argue with that logic. Question though, how do you know that all the calls were by known terrorists?

Oh and btw all the calls did not originate OUTSIDE the U.S., you must have missed that news

shamus



I guess I did miss the news. President Bush said yesterday that the program was very specific and only monitored calls originating from outside the US. He also said the program was and is under constant review and members of congress have been involved.

I like the idea that we are monitoring all the scum that call into the US.

Offline Shamus

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3580
NYT better get Lawered up...
« Reply #66 on: January 02, 2006, 01:35:17 PM »
"Bush stressed that the surveillance involved telephone calls from "a few numbers" outside the United States by people associated with al-Qaida, the terrorist organization that plotted the Sept. 11 attacks. The White House later clarified Bush's remarks, saying he meant to say calls going to and originating from the U.S. were being monitored."

From the AP.

shamus
one of the cats

FSO Jagdgeschwader 11

Offline john9001

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9453
NYT better get Lawered up...
« Reply #67 on: January 02, 2006, 02:27:06 PM »
if the NSA listens to my phone calls, they will be very,very bored.

what exactly are you afraid of, what "rights" have you lost? explain please in 5000 words or less.

Offline crowMAW

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1179
NYT better get Lawered up...
« Reply #68 on: January 02, 2006, 04:11:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
This as I read it pretty much says the joint resolution is the 'functional equivalent of a declaration of war.'

Even if it were a declaration of war, the 15 days are up.  A warrant was required.

Offline crowMAW

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1179
NYT better get Lawered up...
« Reply #69 on: January 02, 2006, 04:15:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rotax447
Congress cannot limit or modify these Presidential powers, unless the Constitution grants them the explicit power to do so.  I believe it does.

Article I Section 8 - “To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;” and “To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.”

I completely agree.

Offline crowMAW

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1179
NYT better get Lawered up...
« Reply #70 on: January 02, 2006, 04:28:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
So you guys are upset that some phone calls by known terrorists groups and their friends, originating  from OUTSIDE of the US are being monitored?

No, I'm not upset the monitoting took place on calls that originated both outside and inside the US.  

I am upset because the President violated the law he has sworn to defend.

I am upset that the bastards that have been caught are now filing motions to have their verdicts set aside because they may have been caught due to these illegal warrantless wiretaps.  And because our president didn't follow the law, these terrorists have a damn strong case to be set free!

WTG George!  Jeez...when in doubt get a freaking warrant...FISA hands them out like candy.
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
The program was and has been constantly reviewed and approved by members from both sides of Congress as well.

I haven't seen where Congress' approval was requested or provided.  Can you point me to where I can find that.  I've only seen that the Administration notified Congress that they were doing this even after some Members voiced reservations.
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
It's a good thing not to have to get approval for a national security, top secret program from a panel of knitwit, p.c. judges.

The FISA Court is probably the least PC and most conservative court in the land.  They approve nearly every warrant put in front of them with the least strengent burden of reasonableness imaginable.
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
The person/persons who leaked this should be executed.

I agree...they should be exicuted in the same manor as the traitors who teasonously outed Plame.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 06:10:15 PM by crowMAW »

Offline crowMAW

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1179
NYT better get Lawered up...
« Reply #71 on: January 02, 2006, 05:49:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
if the NSA listens to my phone calls, they will be very,very bored.

what exactly are you afraid of, what "rights" have you lost? explain please in 5000 words or less.

For those who don't remember...let me take you back to the 1970s and the Church Committee.  After Watergate broke, Congress investigated the unchecked intelligence gathering practices of the NSA, CIA, FBI, Army Intelligence, IRS and others.  The Church Committee found that intelligence agencies had developed over 600,000 domestic intelligence files on US individuals; had opened and photographed 400,000 pieces of US mail; intercepted over a million telegrams; 11,000 IRS tax investigation were instagated by this domestic intelligence.  And the Commiitee found that frequently the "law and the Constitution were simply ignored."

While the Committee found that most of these surveillance progams started with good intent, the Committee says that, "The tendency of intelligence activities to expand beyond their initial scope is a theme which runs through every aspect of our investigative findings."  Most scary are the examples of political intelligence that was collected.  Wiretaps and other surveillance methods were used on members of Congress, Supreme Court Justices, and numerous mainstream and non-mainstream political figures.  Vietnam protesters were identified for the IRS and were unreasonably targeted for audit.  During Nixon's administration, a large part of the Democratic Party was under surveillance.

The FBI’s COINTELPRO – counterintelligence program – “was designed to ‘disrupt’ groups and ‘neutralize’ individuals deemed to be threats to national security.”  COINTELPRO targeted “speakers, teachers, writers, and publications themselves" in direct conflict with 1st Amendment rights.  Martin Luther King was one of the targets of COINTELPRO.  One of the most disgusting actions of the FBI was a letter sent to King threatening to release embarrassing information about him if he did not commit suicide before going to Sweden to receive the Nobel Peace Prize.

There are documented examples of how an unchecked intelligence community ruined private lives, destroyed marriages and ended careers through threats and innuendo of wrong doing.

The Church Committee also found that intelligence agencies sometimes warped intelligence to meet desired political goals: "The FBI significantly impaired the democratic decisionmaking process by its distorted intelligence reporting on Communist infiltration of and influence on domestic political activity. In private remarks to Presidents and in public statements, the Bureau seriously exaggerated the extent of Communist influence in both the civil rights and anti- Vietnam war movements."

While I like to hope that we would never see that kind of behavior again.  I also recognize that human nature hasn't changed that much in the past 30 years.  I think that unless the intitutional safegaurds that were put in place are followed, that it is very likely to have that dirty past come back again.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 05:56:03 PM by crowMAW »

Offline Rotax447

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 112
NYT better get Lawered up...
« Reply #72 on: January 02, 2006, 06:45:43 PM »
crowMAW,

You, Shamus, myself, and a few others, clearly remember the past abuse of Executive surveillance powers.  Unfortunately, sixty-six percent of our fellow countryman either do not remember, or do not care.

Thank you for taking the time to post the relevant Title 50 laws which were violated, and for clearly pointing out the past abuses, which lead to those laws being passed.

Offline john9001

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9453
NYT better get Lawered up...
« Reply #73 on: January 02, 2006, 08:27:39 PM »
crowMAW, when something gets blown up you will be the first one to cry"why didn't the govt know about it, why didn't they DO SOMETHING"

Offline Holden McGroin

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8591
NYT better get Lawered up...
« Reply #74 on: January 02, 2006, 08:41:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by crowMAW
Even if it were a declaration of war, the 15 days are up.  A warrant was required.


Quote
Ex order of Jimmy Carter1-101. Pursuant to Section 102(a)(1) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1802(a)), the Attorney General is authorized to approve electronic surveillance to acquire foreign intelligence information without a court order, but only if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that Section.


Quote
Ex order of Ronald ReaganThe Attorney General hereby is delegated the power to approve the use for intelligence purposes, within the United States or against a United States person abroad, of any technique for which a warrant would be required if undertaken for law enforcement purposes, provided that such techniques shall not be undertaken unless the Attorney General has determined in each case that there is probable cause to believe that the technique is directed against a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power. Electronic surveillance, as defined in the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978, shall be conducted in accordance with that Act, as well as this Order.


Quote
Ex order of Bill ClintonSection 1. Pursuant to section 302(a)(1) [50 U.S.C. 1822(a)] of the [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance] Act, the Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year, if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that section.


Quote
David Burnham NYT story from November 7, 1982
"COURT SAYS U.S. SPY AGENCY CAN TAP OVERSEAS MESSAGES”

A Federal appeals court has ruled that the National Security Agency may lawfully intercept messages between United States citizens and people overseas, even if there is no cause to believe the Americans are foreign agents, and then provide summaries of these messages to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Because the National Security Agency is among the largest and most secretive intelligence agencies and because millions of electronic messages enter and leave the United States each day, lawyers familiar with the intelligence agency consider the decision to mark a significant increase in the legal authority of the Government to keep track of its citizens.


There seems to be some disagreement with your position.
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!