Author Topic: NYT better get Lawered up...  (Read 2221 times)

Offline Harry

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NYT better get Lawered up...
« Reply #75 on: January 02, 2006, 09:09:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rotax447
crowMAW,

You, Shamus, myself, and a few others, clearly remember the past abuse of Executive surveillance powers.  Unfortunately, sixty-six percent of our fellow countryman either do not remember, or do not care.


They remember. They just lack the mental fortitude to care. They're just as complacent and decadent as the 1930s Europeans. The last century was the German, Japanese and Soviet century. This century will indeed be the American and Chinese century. The only question is how many lives it will take to destroy you.

Offline Rolex

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« Reply #76 on: January 02, 2006, 09:57:01 PM »
I would add here that the problem has never historically been what any leader, or agency under the direction of that leader, tells you they are doing. It is what they don't tell you. And what subsequent governments contrive and twist once any practice becomes commonplace.

If the framers of the US Constitution magically reappeared and posted here, I think many of you would dismiss them as weaping liberals. The position that you should have nothing to fear from politicians and governments seems diametrically opposed to the positions of those framers.

Offline crowMAW

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« Reply #77 on: January 02, 2006, 10:56:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
quote:
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Ex order of Jimmy Carter1-101. Pursuant to Section 102(a)(1) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1802(a)), the Attorney General is authorized to approve electronic surveillance to acquire foreign intelligence information without a court order, but only if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that Section.
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Says they must follow FISA.  That is 50 U.S.C. 1802.  Consistant with what I said.
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
quote:
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Ex order of Ronald ReaganThe Attorney General hereby is delegated the power to approve the use for intelligence purposes, within the United States or against a United States person abroad, of any technique for which a warrant would be required if undertaken for law enforcement purposes, provided that such techniques shall not be undertaken unless the Attorney General has determined in each case that there is probable cause to believe that the technique is directed against a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power. Electronic surveillance, as defined in the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978, shall be conducted in accordance with that Act, as well as this Order.
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Says they must follow FISA.  Consistant with what I said.
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
quote:
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Ex order of Bill ClintonSection 1. Pursuant to section 302(a)(1) [50 U.S.C. 1822(a)] of the [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance] Act, the Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year, if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that section.
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Says they must follow FISA.  Consistant with what I said.  By the way...one of the certifications that is referenced in the above states that the surveillence may only take place IF "there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party."

Just so you have the reference 50 USC 1811 (which is FISA) states:

Notwithstanding any other law, the President, through the Attorney General, may authorize electronic surveillance without a court order under this subchapter to acquire foreign intelligence information for a period not to exceed fifteen calendar days following a declaration of war by the Congress.

Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
quote:
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David Burnham NYT story from November 7, 1982
"COURT SAYS U.S. SPY AGENCY CAN TAP OVERSEAS MESSAGES”

A Federal appeals court has ruled that the National Security Agency may lawfully intercept messages between United States citizens and people overseas, even if there is no cause to believe the Americans are foreign agents, and then provide summaries of these messages to the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Because the National Security Agency is among the largest and most secretive intelligence agencies and because millions of electronic messages enter and leave the United States each day, lawyers familiar with the intelligence agency consider the decision to mark a significant increase in the legal authority of the Government to keep track of its citizens.
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Gotta case citation?  Without it we don't know if it was overturned by a higher court or any other details.  Based on the year, I would guess it might be US v Truong...in which the court found that the wiretap was legal at the time because the surveillence took place before FISA was inacted.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 10:59:53 PM by crowMAW »

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #78 on: January 02, 2006, 11:12:33 PM »
Crow,

Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347
Katz involved the warrantless interception of a conversation held by a criminal defendant in a phone booth. The Court held that the Fourth Amendment applies to such conversations, and that in an ordinary criminal prosecution (subject to many exceptions, as noted above) a warrant is required for wiretap information to be admissible in court. The Court specifically noted, however, that its decision did not apply to situations involving national security:

Whether safeguards other than prior authorization by a magistrate would satisfy the Fourth Amendment in a situation involving the national security is a question not presented by this case

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #79 on: January 02, 2006, 11:25:19 PM »
In 1980, the Fourth Circuit decided United States v. Truong, another criminal prosecution that arose out of the defendant’s spying on behalf of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. The case squarely presented the issue of the executive branch’s inherent power to conduct warrantless surveillance for national security purposes:

The defendants raise a substantial challenge to their convictions by arguing that the surveillance conducted by the FBI violated the Fourth Amendment and that all the evidence uncovered through that surveillance must consequently be suppressed. As has been stated, the government did not seek a warrant for the eavesdropping on Truong’s phone conversations or the bugging of his apartment. Instead, it relied upon a “foreign intelligence” exception to the Fourth Amendment’s warrant requirement. In the area of foreign intelligence, the government contends, the President may authorize surveillance without seeking a judicial warrant because of his constitutional prerogatives in the area of foreign affairs

The court agreed with the government’s position:

For several reasons, the needs of the executive are so compelling in the area of foreign intelligence, unlike the area of domestic security, that a uniform warrant requirement would, following [United States v. United States District Court, 407 U.S. 297 (1972)], “unduly frustrate” the President in carrying out his foreign affairs responsibilities. First of all, attempts to counter foreign threats to the national security require the utmost stealth, speed and secrecy. A warrant requirement would add a procedural hurdle that would reduce the flexibility of executive foreign intelligence activities, in some cases delay executive response to foreign intelligence threats, and increase the chance of leaks regarding sensitive executive operations.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #80 on: January 02, 2006, 11:28:22 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by Holden McGroin

Ex order of Bill ClintonSection 1. Pursuant to section 302(a)(1) [50 U.S.C. 1822(a)] of the [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance] Act, the Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year, if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that section.

Quote

Reply posted by crow

 
Says they must follow FISA. Consistant with what I said. By the way...one of the certifications that is referenced in the above states that the surveillence may only take place IF "there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party."

Just so you have the reference 50 USC 1811 (which is FISA) states:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notwithstanding any other law, the President, through the Attorney General, may authorize electronic surveillance without a court order under this subchapter to acquire foreign intelligence information for a period not to exceed fifteen calendar days following a declaration of war by the Congress.


But under Clinton's order, it say given certification by the AG, the NSA can spy for a year without a court order.  FISA says 15 days.  How can this EO follow FISA when it (apparently) gives out 350 more days?

All I have is the NYT story.  If I get lucky on Google I can find out the case law, but it's not looking hopeful.
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Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #81 on: January 02, 2006, 11:45:24 PM »
But why not go through the fisa court? I don't understand, if this was created for this situation, and others that relate to national security, why would you not use it? And he keeps saying he will keep doing it for national security reasons? I'm sorry, but that answer doesn't work.

The court itself walks a fine line as it is, and to totally dismiss it? Sorry, I can't agree with it, i'm not for impeaching the guy or wasting money on an investigation, just stop doing it.



checks and balances
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(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #82 on: January 03, 2006, 12:34:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
But why not go through the fisa court? I don't understand, if this was created for this situation, and others that relate to national security, why would you not use it? And he keeps saying he will keep doing it for national security reasons? I'm sorry, but that answer doesn't work.

The court itself walks a fine line as it is, and to totally dismiss it? Sorry, I can't agree with it, i'm not for impeaching the guy or wasting money on an investigation, just stop doing it.



checks and balances


Keep in mind all of this is based off of a NYT story about a program that is highly classified.  This may not be mere wiretapping it may be a whole new way of gathering and collecting intel.  Then again it may not be.  The NYT admitted it left parts of the story out for national security reasons.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #83 on: January 03, 2006, 09:09:11 AM »
rolex... I think if the founders posted here the liberals would be in a rage.  I think that the problem with modern liberals and conservatives is that they have strayed so far from the founders.

They are both alike in one respect.... they both want weaker government when the oppossition is in power and iron fisted government when their guy is in power.

Both sides would remove human rights in order to further their cause.   Both sides want powerful government.... just, their kind of powerful government with them being the ones to tell people what is good for em.

neither side has a problem with their guy acting like a tyrant.

lazs

Offline parker00

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« Reply #84 on: January 03, 2006, 09:46:20 AM »
So basically, most on this board want people killed for leaking information, correct? So are you all for the execution of ALL individuals responsible for the Valerie Plame case or is this just a pick and choose as you see fit? Just curious!!!

Offline crowMAW

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« Reply #85 on: January 03, 2006, 05:18:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347

And it does not matter because it was before FISA was passed.

Offline crowMAW

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« Reply #86 on: January 03, 2006, 05:22:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
In 1980, the Fourth Circuit decided United States v. Truong,

Also the Appeals court found that it was only legal becuase it the surveillance took place before FISA.  The FISA Review Court even made that distinction when citing it in Sealed Case No. 02-001.

Offline crowMAW

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« Reply #87 on: January 03, 2006, 05:34:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
But under Clinton's order, it say given certification by the AG, the NSA can spy for a year without a court order.  FISA says 15 days.  How can this EO follow FISA when it (apparently) gives out 350 more days?

Klinton's order states "persuant to...FISA", ie the order is based on FISA and must follow FISA.

To help everyone...here is a link to the relevent law for wiretaps:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sup_01_50_10_36_20_I.html

and for the Klinton order (which is in reference to physical searches not wiretaps):

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sup_01_50_10_36_20_II.html

The important sections that everyone keeps referencing are 1802, 1809, 1811, 1822, & 1829.

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #88 on: January 03, 2006, 05:56:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by crowMAW
Klinton's order states "persuant to...FISA", ie the order is based on FISA and must follow FISA.


But FISA says 15 and Clinton says a year.  Your not saying Clinton issued a flawed directive are you?
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Offline Shamus

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« Reply #89 on: January 03, 2006, 06:02:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
But FISA says 15 and Clinton says a year.  Your not saying Clinton issued a flawed directive are you?


Yes.

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