US intelligence: Israel will attack

[Urchin]

Whoa.  Some pretty heavy feelings both ways.  I've yet to read the article you posted a like to, I suspect it will be heavily biased in one way or another.  

There have been some interesting arguments posted here, and while I certainly don't condone Isreali behaviour, I also feel that the Arabs will not be satisfied until the Isreali's no longer have a country.  I don't believe the Palestinians are truly interested in negotiating a "settlement" with Isreal, unless that settlement is actually "OK, turn over all your military equipment, land, and other resources, and get the hell out".

Isreal was granted their land as a result of a U.N. decision in 1948 (I believe)- they took additional land as a result of conquest.  They have also GIVEN BACK some of the land they took in the course of the (was it the '68 or '73 war?) war.  

I really do think that Isreal, like any other country, has the right to look after its own self-interest.  I've not seen any other specifics on the amount of dollars that the U.S. government sends their way, and I suspect that much of that comes from the legacy of the Cold War, when Isreal was our only client state in a region that had turned to the Soviets for arms and material.  Perhaps it will change someday, perhaps not.  

I don't think, however, that there will ever be a "peaceful" solution to this matter.  The only thing the Palestinians will be ultimately happy with is the elimation of Isreal as a country.  Likewise, the Isreali's will not be happy until their country is as secure as it can possibly be, which is a tough thing in a region where it is surrounded by unfriendly neighbors.

[Nifty]

Cut off the aid to Israel and you think they will seek peace?  Hmm, I'm not sure.  It might just make them go all out SOONER while they still have all their "toys" in working order.  

However, we should do something.  We've condoned them to "expand" their borders and to protect those new borders for far too long.  Normally, I'd say stay out of it, but since the US is indirectly responsible due to the aid we gave (and continue to give) Israel, we have to...  well, I have no clue what we have to do.

[~Caligula~]

Urchin said it all right.
The arbs want to push Israel into the sea,Israel want to stay and be secure.
I`ve been to the Golan Heights,I saw the abandoned sirian artillery,and since Israel is such small ountry,they could have shelled many cities from there.And they did,so Israel took it from them,when they had the excuse of being attacked by Siria.It`s sad they had to kick arabs out of there ,that lived there for generations,but it was their government that provocated that move.
BTW,Israel is the only true ally of the US in the middle east,the rest like Saudi Arabia cannot be fully trusted.And we all know the US depends on that oil.

[Nashwan]

The biggest problem has been Israeli settlement of the West Bank and Gazza, and that has nothing to do with security. Israel had a chance at peace with most Palestinians, and it could have worked at marginalising the extremists and suicide bombers. Instead it chose to use the semi peace it had achieved to build more settlements, take more land etc.
Israeli retaliation is what is driving most of the violence. For every suicide bomber you have several air raids, helicoptor gunship attacks, artillery strikes. Going down the road of reprisals against the population will just lead to more attacks, as the Nazis found out in Russia and Yugoslavia.
It's interesting to see the way Israel enforces justice. Two extremist Jewish activists are suspected of murdering 3 Palestinians, including a young child. The Israeli police have asked the men to report for questioning, and they have both refused. Will Israel now launch guided missiles at the houses of those suspected of harbouring them?

[Hangtime]

Israel's behavior has some comparison in the behavior of white settlers into indian lands.

What we did was wrong then.. what Israel is doing is wrong now. Snatching land, moving the original owners off forcibly, populating that land with its own citizens and then using the entirely expected attacks aginst those citizens as a reason for increasing their 'protective zones' smacks of a pure toejamty deal for the folks that lived there first.

Israel's political policy for 50 years has been more or less inclined to 'reasonable settlemnt' with the Palestenians...  'reasonable settlement' being another damn kibbutz implanted on uncle habib's date palm plantation.

Uncle habib gets all kinds of promises, even gets a decree from Moshe's government for his land back, or fair value paid. But 'ol Moshe and his expanded family of 870 unprotected souls howls about how is brother and father died 'securing this land'.. spits on ol habib's lawful decree and shoots him in the foot.

When Habib comes back next time, he brings friends...

The place is a nuthouse.. and it's high time Isreal backed up it's own bark with some bite on Israli citizens, before going after Habib, who lost his land, his bucks, his trust, his pride and his big toe to moshe's pack of devils.

Frankly, the side were backin in this sad little repeat of history has far less credibility in my eyes when it cries about 'security'.

[mrfish]

Originally posted by Hangtime:
Israel's political policy for 50 years has been more or less inclined to 'reasonable settlemnt' with the Palestenians...  'reasonable settlement' being another damn kibbutz implanted on uncle habib's date palm plantation.
.

lol   - well put.

[Dawvgrid]

What can I say that hasn`t been said,but israel really pisses me of,they havent learned a single thing from the past.
What do they call Gaza and the Westbank,,,,
lebensraum?,,,,,and furthermore they elected
a butcher as their leader.

Dawvgrid

[~Caligula~]

and furthermore they elected
a butcher as their leader.

Hmm..I have to aggree with that.He`s a hero of the 1967 war.IMO all great commanders of wartime make horrible leaders of any country.
Look at the russians.Khruschew fought in Stalingrad,I doubt after that he could ever gain he`s sanity back.They`re just so paranoid about everything,thinking:we will never let "that" happen again.

It`s all too easy to judge from the USA.Safe and far away.But what would You say if your child was blown up in a schoolbus?
What sets terrorists apart from guerillas or freedom fighters is, they kill innocent people while the others attack military targets.Childeren are by any means innocent.
And if You blow up kids for whatever reason,You deserve the most harsh treament,and that`s what Israel is about to deal out to these allah-freaks.

[StSanta]

Jews have been treated poorly since many hundreds of years. The latest atrocities committed by the Russians and Nazi's during WWII lead to an understanding - in order for them to be protected, they need to do it themselves. And they need to be a nation state to do so.

Who decided that the piece of land they now have would be theirs? Zionists lobbied intesively, but ultimately it was up to the colonial masters.

Just established as a new state, with aging military equipment, they were attacked.

Some years later, another attack was in the works. Preemptive strikes dealt witht hat.

And again, another attack on Israel.

There is, IMHO, no doubt that Israel is surrounded by hostile states, some which have a fanatical hatred towards the Israelis. There's no doubt in my mind that the Israelis will not allow themselves to be victims again.

Also worth noting is that Israel is just about the only democracy in the area. it's the only state which shares the western values and beliefs to any larger extent. All groups seek to help and protect allies, and it seems it is in our best interest to help promote or protect democracy and freedom - wherever it takes place. The question of course is whether we by helping Israel are actually helping them opress the Palestinians.

Put in another way; we do help a democratic state, but it needs to use undemocratic methods to protect itself. Or does it? I believe that Sharon is NOT doing his part in trying to keep the level of violence down. Barak, who tried, lost the confidence of the people. Immensely hard to solve this problem :/

We *must* understand the history involved if we want to have any hope of getting a clear picture of what's going on.

As important as acknowledging the plight of the Israelis is understanding the enormous problem faced by the Palestinians - and it is *us*, the western powers, that are primarily responsible for creating the situation in the first place. I feel that we have some responsibility in securing a deal for them to compensate. There's no questoin about what the Israeli's are doing is a great injustice to the general palestinian population - or indeed in some regards is downright criminal.

As an interesting footnote, I've read on various websites and in books that the Palestinians that currently live in the area haven't been there for very long - certainly not as long as the original Americans had occupied the US. It seems there's a mishmash of migration patterns dating back several hundred years, and it is hard to discern who has a "birth right" to the region

[Nashwan]

Hmm..I have to aggree with that.He`s a hero of the 1967 war.IMO all great commanders of wartime make horrible leaders of any country.

I think he was refering more to the massacres at Shabra and Shatila refugee camps.
 

It`s all too easy to judge from the USA.Safe and far away.But what would You say if your child was blown up in a schoolbus?
What sets terrorists apart from guerillas or freedom fighters is, they kill innocent people while the others attack military targets.Childeren are by any means innocent.
And if You blow up kids for whatever reason,You deserve the most harsh treament,and that`s what Israel is about to deal out to these allah-freaks.

These "Allah-freaks" are doing exactly what Israel does, attacking the enemy. Israel does it more effectively, and uses greater force, but the principle is exactly the same. For every car bomb there are several air raids, artillery stikes, etc. For every dead Jew there are many dead Palestinians. For every dead Israeli child Israel has killed many Palestinian children. Approx 70 children have been shot dead by the Israeli army in the last year.
Since last September, when the current fighting began, 513 people have been killed, 88 Israelis and 425 Palestinians. By far the bulk of the killing is done by Israelis, using a wide variety of methods, including car bombs of their own.
there was a recent case in which an armed Israeli settler caught a 10 year old Palestinian boy he believed had been throwing stones at settler's cars. The man kicked the boy to the ground, put his foot on his neck (fracturing his spinal cord) and beat him to death with the butt of a pistol. The settler recieved a six month community service sentence.

[Dawvgrid]

Thats right Nashvan I was,,In Shabra and Shatila only women and children were present
,,,no soldier.

[miko2d]

Some good points here.

 When Israel was created in 1948 through UN resolution, those people who just survived Holocaust and were thrown out from Poland and other countries would have accepted whatever was offeret to them.
 May be some dedicated sionists would have stayed in Palestine like they did for hundreds of years - who cares about them.
 So the big powers made a mistake then.
 That is no more stupid then the Treaty of Versaille that guaranteed the WWII, surrendering Chechoslovakia to Hitler, refusing Jewish refugees from his regime, british split of India and Pakistan that guaranteed a war there for the next few hundred years (both sides armed with nukes?), and many others.

 Now those people in Israel who were born after the state was created are 50 years old.  Most population does not have any other country to call their own. They do not have anywhere to go, they can fight and they have technology and nuclear weapons.
 That is the situation we have to deal with.

Any relations incude rights and responcibilities. US does help Israel and Israel does a lot of things requested by US because of that aid.
 US cannot just demand Israel to make some drastic steps about their security that could threaten their lives. No amount of military help is worth that.
 If US requests Israel to sacrifice their security, it would have to take responcibility for it. And we know what happened the last few times when US took part in peace-keeping missions - it went home with it's tail between it's legs.

 US soldiers blown up in Lebanon were not there to oppress anyone. Same in Africa. Keeping peace is hard and bloody work. US has no stomack for it. At least it has money to offer instead.

 One thing I do not understand. US has a great way to influence other countries and at the same time reap huge benefits. That would be opening immigration.
 There are quite a few israelis dissatisfied with the policies that religious group is forcing on the country. They are not the ones that push for settlements on occupied lands but thay are the ones suffering the results.
 What if US allowed those highly educated, democratic people to come in? We are talking about 3 million tops? Same goes for disposessed palestinians.
 Of couse the religious fanatics on both sides would stay there but who cares about them? They believe their Gods would provide for them, so let them sette their differences.

 Same goes for Russia now that it's democratic enough to allow emigration. Why worry that their hungry scientists will go work for terrorist regimes, or compete with them technologically? Just  automatically approve anyone with graduate education for immigration here.
 Russians are really nice people when not hungry. Why spend billions on building weapons to kill them if you can have their brains here for very little cost if any?
 Same goes for many other troubled spots - albanians, etc. Usually numbers of people involved are small enough compared to annual immiration into US.

 miko

[mrfish]

Originally posted by StSanta:
.

As an interesting footnote, I've read on various websites and in books that the Palestinians that currently live in the area haven't been there for very long - certainly not as long as the original Americans had occupied the US. It seems there's a mishmash of migration patterns dating back several hundred years, and it is hard to discern who has a "birth right" to the region

you mean this one?

 http://masada2000.org/index.html#1  

i would say it has a decided bias. they did do a great job of marrying sappy music with heart-wrenching pictures though. it's propagandariffic! there may some truth to that but to me it matters who is there at the time - i imagine the people who got their land stolen shared that view.

actually....in establishing israel on what was palestine, the small black, asian and hispanic countries had much more to do with it than mean old white guys. britain diodnt want to touch it and left te decision to the newly formed and extremely unstable UN. i know no rockstars would ever hold a touching benefit blaming these guys but they are to blame.

the vote was decidedly in favor of the arab proposal before the UN adjourned for thanksgiving. old money jews in the US used this time to buy and threaten votes out of the phillipines, haiti, brazil, liberia and a host of other recently admitted UN partners. the arabs were stunned when their hopes of an integrated country were undermined by payoffs.

can't blame white protestant males for this one only rich american jews who remained more or less anonymous throughout the process.

as far as them needing protection and deserving a homeland because everyone gets sick of them every so often and tries to wipe em out - apply that sentiment to the kurds.

the kurds in turkey and iraq are the largest ethnic group without a homeland. unfortunately our dominant religion isnt a messianic fulfillment of theirs, we dont share a 'holy land' with them,they arent entrenched in our country lobbying at every turn, and they dont claim to be god's special little helpers so i guess we will never kick down 1/4 of our aid to them or help them steal a homeland. what they need is a new PR firm!

their massacre is as heartfelt as anyones, just not as well publicised and exploited and it hasn't become politically correct to 'feel for them' yet. i am not talking about a few years during the gulf war i am talking about decades of persecution.

the holocaust is not the only wholesale slaughter of a people in our world - ask the cambodians and countless others. its just the only one with 8700000000 documentaries about it. it has just been exploited to a science and has fueled a guilt industry for 50 years. time to stop feeling sorry for the israelis they have long run out of mileage with me.

[ 07-24-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]

[SirLoin]

Maybe one day we will learn to celabrate our differences instead of killing in the name of them.."You can't run a country by a book of religion,not by a heap,or a lump or a smigion.Of foolish rules of an ancient date,designed to make us all feel great.To arms!To Arms!Two legs ain't bad when they ship the crate home to Momma in."..Frank Zappa(Dumb All Over..You Are What You Is)

[Eagler]

miko said:
"If US requests Israel to sacrifice their security, it would have to take responcibility for it. And we know what happened the last few times when US took part in peace-keeping missions - it went home with it's tail between it's legs.

US soldiers blown up in Lebanon were not there to oppress anyone. Same in Africa. Keeping peace is hard and bloody work. US has no stomack for it. At least it has money to offer instead."

Exactly the reason I oppose "international - read US - peacekeepers/monitors" to be stationed anywhere near this never ending blood bath. Hope Bush makes good his promise and gets clintons "be home by Christmas" troops back on US soil sooner than later.. Enough of the world's police, send them money and weapons.