Author Topic: Serious wing loading  (Read 1891 times)

Offline Mace2004

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Serious wing loading
« Reply #60 on: January 06, 2006, 05:34:10 PM »
Navcad,

You make an excellent point regarding the Tomcat's size which was originally dictated by the Phoenix but there were many other factors including speed, range, loiter, AWG-9 and two crew.    

I also agree that the F-16 is a superior dogfighter, I wasn't claiming the Tomcat was the best knife fighter (and the F16 is also superior to the Eagle in pure knife fighting).   Wouldn't you know the USAF would take such a great little fighter, paint it green and sling bombs under it?...oh and before everyone points out they're grey, the originals were green.

The point I was trying to make is that all aircraft are a series of compromises and the F14 is no different.  The big question is how well does it do it's intended mission?  Another question almost as big as the first is what is the plane's growth potential?   I know the Navy is restructuring the airwing and trying to reduce airframes.  This really started in the late 80s when they cancelled the A-6F all the while knowing this meant the end of the A6 altogether in the 90s.  A large (some would say the largest) part of this restructuring also included the cost savings by reducing the number of aircrew (i.e., two seaters).  

Our position from a purely operational standpoint was that if you wanted a single airframe to do multiple missions, the F14 was a much better starting place than the Hornet.  All of the missions they're now expecting the Hornet to do are easier with a larger airframe that's why the Super Hornet is completely different (except in appearance) from the original.  The F15E is probably the best example of using a proven airframe (and two crew) for multiple missions.  It's almost as big as the Tomcat, it's two seat, and it's also the best TACAIR fighter-attack plane the US has.  (Also, another little known factoid is that Grumman's Tomcat 21 concept included a mix of one and two seat Tomcats because they saw what the Navy was really doing.)

The money spent on developing the Super Hornet could, and in my less than humble opinion, should, have been spent on new, advanced F14s (let's call them F14E/F).  This also would have been a better investment to cover the gap between 1970/80 generation aircraft and a new stealth Navy fighter-attack plane.  A lot is made of the fact that the airframe was designed in the late 60's but the YF-18 was designed in the 70s along with the F16.  What's obten forgotten is that the airframe's job is to get the weapons where they need to be (well ok...ya gotta look good doing it also!).  A new design airframe with a new design weapon system is the best of both worlds IF you can afford it which the Navy couldn't.  But if you need a gap filler between older aircraft and a new 21st century one then new technology in the weapon system is far more important, especially when you have a highly capable airframe already, that airframe is more capable than the competition's AND it has more growth potential.

As far as the retirement of the F14, you're absolutely right that they needed to go, but only because the Navy made the wrong decision in the 90s.  Oh, and Grumman would still be making Navy fighters and wouldn't be a wholy-owned subsidiary of Northrup.

Mace

BTW, you've got good ears NAVCAD.   F14D Operational Test Director at VX-4 from 88-90.  Yeah..ok..so I'm a little biased but I ain't wrong!:aok
« Last Edit: January 06, 2006, 06:33:42 PM by Mace2004 »
Mace
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Offline Rolex

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Serious wing loading
« Reply #61 on: January 06, 2006, 06:57:18 PM »
The site upload is reasonably fast. I was able to download 2 at a time @ 450+ KB/sec., so there must be a problem in your routing or ISP.

@ Mace: hmmmm. I was at Pax River in 1991-92 also. The days of RADMs Becker and Snider, (Paula...), CAPT Webb, et al.

Gotta miss those non-linear throttles... ;)

Offline Mace2004

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« Reply #62 on: January 06, 2006, 07:29:41 PM »
Rolex,
I was at the schoolhouse in Pax in 87 then to VX4.  Loved Pax but it's hard to beat SOCAL and the flying there.  I'm gonna take a wild bellybutton guess that you're talking about Jack Snider and Paula Coughlin.  Yeah, what...a lovely pair!  Belly shots and leg shaving for the house...Jack's buying!  He was PMA-241 and head of the F14 program while I was doing OT-IIA, B and C (OPEVAL) at VX4.  What were you doing at Pax?

Mace
Mace
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Offline Rolex

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Serious wing loading
« Reply #63 on: January 06, 2006, 08:16:20 PM »
I'll send a Private Message with a Paula story. :-) Cheers

Offline Morpheus

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Serious wing loading
« Reply #64 on: January 06, 2006, 09:49:07 PM »
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaahhhhhhhhhhhhahahahaha

Do not eat before watching this.

I thought she was "okay" looking before they took off. That quickly changed. And NOT for the better.

http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos.php?action=view&id=327&go=download
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Offline indy007

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Serious wing loading
« Reply #65 on: January 07, 2006, 07:38:35 PM »
Man, I'd love to furball in this thing...

http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos.php?action=view&id=231

Offline NAVCAD

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Paula Coughlin.....
« Reply #66 on: January 09, 2006, 08:57:15 AM »
Mace,

As a fellow Navy man HOW DARE you mention her name.:(   I know Paula (I use her name only because I can't really use the name for her without getting booted off):)  

I was at North Island from '89-'93.  I take it you were there for the infamous Tail Hook follies that happened the day before Congresswoman Pat Schroeder toured Miramar (During the Tail Hook Witch Hunt).  I love the banner sttretched across the O-club that read...."Hickory Dickory Doc....Pat Schroeder can suck my (You fill in the rest)   :)

I sure do love you "go-fast" guys.   :)

Also, as soon as I can figure out how to post a picture here, I'll post the patch that the SH-60 comunity made showing a helo picking up an rather wet kitty with the caption " Anytime baby"...:):)

All Kidding aside, as I said before the F-14 was and is a sexy plane.

NAVCAD


"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid"

Offline Mace2004

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« Reply #67 on: January 09, 2006, 11:11:03 AM »
Hey NAVCAD, ah yes...memories.  While I wasn't at Tailhook 91 (I had a damn good excuse since I was sitting alert 5 on the deck of the Lincoln at the time) I was back in time for the Tomcat Follies.  Believe it was VF51's skit that had the Hickory Dickery Dock in it.  Funny thing was the Follies were a "closed set" so that we wouldn't have any problems with non-member participation and the community could speak it's mind the way we always did during Foc'sle Follies when we could make fun of very senior people that weren't humor challenged.  What happened though is  VF-51's "skit" (actually a large wooden contraption that spelled out the poem)was still up when the O'Club opened the curtains for the dining room that overlooked the patio and some, drunk as a skunk, ugly-ass, feminist be'atch, female O-6 saw it.  She's the one that blew the whistle.  Don't know if you knew Mandy, the O'club receptionist but she and I were....ah...good friends.  She's one of the people that had to help this drunk captain out of the club.... and that, as they say, was that.  Funny but the F-14D was cancelled less than a month after the incident.  Coincidence?  I've always wondered.


Mace
Mace
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Offline NAVCAD

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« Reply #68 on: January 09, 2006, 11:42:27 AM »
Yes Mace I knew Mandy.

A lot of us Helo guys got a chuckle out of the Focsl-Follies incident.  Paula of course decided to quit the Navy and SUE for what I herd was $1Mil.  She came into the HSL community as a CAT III with this holier-than-thow attitude and had her T*TS hammered.  

Gee I wonder why?

I was also there at Miramar when a freak cold front came through during an Airshow and the F-14D "accidently" popped MACH.  Windows all through the area, including University Towne Center, shattered.  Lots of FUN. :)

Oh Well!  The Grunts have it now.

NAVCAD


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Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #69 on: January 18, 2006, 09:54:55 PM »
Here is one place this often used wallpaper of mine will be understood and appreciated.  



It was pulling a little to much G's (SR 71's aren't fighters and it has a limit of 3 G.) at moment the oxygen by the inlets is cut off. At that moment the engine is without oxygen but not without fuel, this is given an enormous quantity of fuel inside the engine without ignition. The pilot released the pressure on the joystick a little and one split second later fresh oxygen flowed into the engine again, so the engines could run again. But the quantity of fuel for the engine is at that moment to much and it's exploding with some enormous shooting flames. After the explosions the engines were running perfect again.  

Karaya
« Last Edit: January 18, 2006, 10:03:56 PM by Masherbrum »
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