Author Topic: Massive damage from a single 20mm shell to a B17 - survivor's story  (Read 932 times)

Offline Grendel

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Ian McLachlan, bomber crew, 24th war sortie
452nd Bomb Group, 24.12.1944, , plane B-17G 42-31358.

"Two FW 190s made a pass through our formation. They hit out ship with a 20 mm shell.
Our radio operator Phil was badly wounded by the explosion before he could sound the alarm. Phil had shrapnel in both arms, in his legs at the knees. He also had pieces of aluminium above his eyes and the radio room as like a sieve with two or three hundred small holes.
The oxygen system was damaged.
Slightly Dangerous was in a bad shape. The 20mm shell exploded in the left inner wing panel behind No.2 engine. The hole was large enough for two men to stand in. The trailing edge of the wing and the flaps were in tatters.
Control cables and electrical cables were sheared. The explosion missed a main fuel tank by six inches.
The left wing vibrated above 145 mph, so we could not keep up with the formation.
...
(rtb)
We made a straight-in approach for a hot landing without flaps.
(approach) Suddenly another plane was overhead and dropped down in front of us. Mac gunned all four engines to full boots and No.3 caught fire as we staggered across the air base.
(overshot the runway) Mac was evidently trying to crashland in a large, sloping field. The mail wheels tripped into treetops and pitched the bomber's nose violently downwards."

In the end the plane crashlanded heavily, with six of the crew perishing.

--

And all this from a single 20 mm strike at the wing.
Source: Flypast February 2006 issue, article "Always Maximum", page 32->

g.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2006, 03:51:12 PM by Grendel »

Offline Karnak

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Massive damage from a single 20mm shell to a B17 - survivor's story
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2006, 04:07:34 PM »
Does it say how they knew it was a 20mm round and not a 30mm round?  My first guess would be that it was actually a 30mm round.
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Offline Krusty

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Massive damage from a single 20mm shell to a B17 - survivor's story
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2006, 04:10:38 PM »
probably a 20mm mgeschoss, they were supposedly very nasty.

Offline Grendel

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Massive damage from a single 20mm shell to a B17 - survivor's story
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2006, 04:36:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Does it say how they knew it was a 20mm round and not a 30mm round?  My first guess would be that it was actually a 30mm round.


No. Since he was so definite on the account I'd guess it is from damage assessment done on the wreck after the crash.

Offline 1K3

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Massive damage from a single 20mm shell to a B17 - survivor's story
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2006, 05:10:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
probably a 20mm M-Geschoß, they were supposedly very nasty.


Is this modeled in fo german planes in AH?

Offline Karnak

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Massive damage from a single 20mm shell to a B17 - survivor's story
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2006, 05:30:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 1K3
Is this modeled in fo german planes in AH?

Yes, but due to the way AH belts are calculated it is mostly mitigated.


I still bet 30mm.  The mine shell was more damageing, yes, but not enough more to do the damage described there.
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Offline Krusty

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Massive damage from a single 20mm shell to a B17 - survivor's story
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2006, 06:33:52 PM »
Technically it's not modeled. Every MG151 20mm round has the same damage as every other round. While the mine round was more powerful than a hispano, it was every 3rd bullet (or is that every 5th??) in a belt that had AP, HE, and MG 20mm rounds, so AH averages the damage and applies that damage to every round

Offline 1K3

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Massive damage from a single 20mm shell to a B17 - survivor's story
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2006, 08:14:10 PM »
bring 20mm M-Geschoß for LW planes to aces high!

(runs and hides)

Offline Krusty

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Massive damage from a single 20mm shell to a B17 - survivor's story
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2006, 08:28:28 PM »
That would be nice, but can you consider how hard that would be? You'd have to code it to remember what round you're at in the belt, what round would fire next, and when you're firing 4 guns at a time you'd have hundreds of bullets of mixed caliber to keep track of. It complicates things.

I don't think AH is currently capable of tracking mixed-belt ammo.

Offline Morpheus

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Massive damage from a single 20mm shell to a B17 - survivor's story
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2006, 11:46:37 PM »
tracers
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Be A WARRIOR NOT A WORRIER!

Offline Yeager

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Massive damage from a single 20mm shell to a B17 - survivor's story
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2006, 12:09:33 AM »
I believe several oxygen bottles were stowed in the radio compartment as well.

It sounds like secondary explosion may have contributed to such extensive damage.  Just supposition on my part.
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Offline Grendel

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Massive damage from a single 20mm shell to a B17 - survivor's story
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2006, 02:45:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
I believe several oxygen bottles were stowed in the radio compartment as well.

It sounds like secondary explosion may have contributed to such extensive damage.  Just supposition on my part.


Very likely. Good point. I wondered how the 200-300 holes could have been generated... Secondary explosion would be logical.

Offline mussie

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Massive damage from a single 20mm shell to a B17 - survivor's story
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2006, 04:40:05 AM »
B-17's were know for there hardiness....

Thats why I have always loved the old bird, My very first model was a B-17 I was to young to build it right, it looked battle damaged when I was done LOL
 
B-17 Nose Hits

B-17 Fuselage Hits

B-17 Wing Hits

B-17 Tail Hits :aok

Offline Charge

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Massive damage from a single 20mm shell to a B17 - survivor's story
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2006, 04:58:41 AM »
"I still bet 30mm. The mine shell was more damageing, yes, but not enough more to do the damage described there."

I concur, or the secondary explosion due to shrapnel damage on ox bottles.

I think the 20mm MG is able to blast away pieces of wing plating but I doubt it does much pressure damage inside a bombers fuselage unless it actually hits something vital.

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Offline EdXCal

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Massive damage from a single 20mm shell to a B17 - survivor's story
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2006, 11:28:14 AM »
Wow!!! That last B17 nose damage story is unreal!!!! A 20mm shell broke the bomb rack in the plane, sending all the bombs through the bomb bay, then after the plane dropped 15k it landed in a field then a prop came lose and cut through the side of the plane!!! Damn, I can't believe that plane was still together, theres nothing said about anyone getting hurt, if they didn't, there the luckiest crew ever!!!

Edward