Author Topic: free Dmitry!!!!!!  (Read 3545 times)

Offline Yoj

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« Reply #60 on: July 25, 2001, 02:40:00 PM »
I'm no lawyer, so this stuff might not say quite what it says, but it seems to me in looking at what Fatty posted, that the key is the exact wording of Section 106, since Section 501 points to it as defining infringement, and what Neshwan posted overrides Section 106.  

There could be a clear violation based on Section 1201, but only if it can be shown that Dmitry's software was PRIMARILY intended to be used to infringe (as defined in Sections 106-112).  Determining that is just the kind of thing that keeps Attorney's in Armani suits.

- Yoj

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #61 on: July 25, 2001, 03:38:00 PM »
What Yoj said
 
Quote
Sec. 501. Infringement of copyright
(a) Anyone who violates any of the exclusive rights of the copyright owner as provided by sections 106 through 121 or of the author as provided in section 106A(a), or who imports copies or phonorecords into the United States in violation of section 602, is an infringer of the copyright or right of the author, as the case may be. For purposes of this chapter (other than section 506), any reference to copyright shall be deemed to include the rights conferred by section 106A(a). As used in this subsection, the term ''anyone'' includes any State, any instrumentality of a State, and any officer or employee of a State or instrumentality of a State acting in his or her official capacity. Any State, and any such instrumentality, officer, or employee, shall be subject to the provisions of this title in the same manner and to the same extent as any nongovernmental entity.
(b) The legal or beneficial owner of an exclusive right under a copyright is entitled, subject to the requirements of section 411, to institute an action for any infringement of that particular right committed while he or she is the owner of it. The court may require such owner to serve written notice of the action with a copy of the complaint upon any person shown, by the records of the Copyright Office or otherwise, to have or claim an interest in the copyright, and shall require that such notice be served upon any person whose interest is likely to be affected by a decision in the case. The court may require the joinder, and shall permit the intervention, of any person having or claiming an interest in the copyright
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a) Making of Additional Copy or Adaptation by Owner of Copy. - Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided:
(1) that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an
essential step in the utilization of the computer program in
conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other
manner, or
(2) that such new copy or adaptation is for archival purposes
only and that all archival copies are destroyed in the event that
continued possession of the computer program should cease to be
rightful.
In other words, it is not an infringement of copyright to make a copy for your own use.

 
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(b) Additional Violations. - (1) No person shall manufacture, import, offer to the public, provide, or otherwise traffic in any technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof, that -
(A) is primarily designed or produced for the purpose of circumventing protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in a work or a portion thereof;
(B) has only limited commercially significant purpose or use other than to circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in a work or a portion thereof; or
(C) is marketed by that person or another acting in concert with that person with that person's knowledge for use in circumventing protection afforded by a technological measure that effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title in a work or a portion thereof.

(2) As used in this subsection -
(A) to ''circumvent protection afforded by a technological measure'' means avoiding, bypassing, removing, deactivating, or otherwise impairing a technological measure; and
(B) a technological measure ''effectively protects a right of a copyright owner under this title'' if the measure, in the ordinary course of its operation, prevents, restricts, or otherwise limits the exercise of a right of a copyright owner under this title.
In other words, you can't sell something that is almost soley for the purpose of infringing copyright, but making a copy for yourself is not infringing copyright. Making a copy for yourself is specifically allowed.
Banning something that prevents you from making a copy for your own use violates your rights to make a copy.

This isn't the law that Dmitry is being held under. He is being held under the provisions of the DMCA, which makes a specific offense of enabling someone to defeat encryption on a digital work. The act covers devices like zip password crackers, and makes it illegal even to tell someone how to defeat the encryption.

 
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Yes you can give it to him. What you cannot do is photocopy the book and give that to him
You are allowed to photocopy a book for your own use.


 
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Selling general-use lockpicks and guns may be quite legal.
Copying a key to a person's house without his permission and selling copies is not. There is quite a difference.
If Dimitry's tools were not general code breakers but specific adobe code breakers (even if adobe's code is based on some general algotithm), then he is as gulty.
No, Adobe do not own copyright to the works encrypted with their software. It is not a key to Adobe's house, it is a key to all locks Adobe makes.
Adobe encrypts books and sells them, but the copyright remains with the author/publisher.

 
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You can sell people hammers that can be used to smash doors, but if you personally smash someone else's door and let thiefs in for a small charge, you will be found guilty even if you do not steal anything.
That's the point I am making. Dmitry sells the hammer. Whose door people choose to smash in, and the reason they choose to smash it in, is entirely up to them.

Like I said, this case is the tip of the iceberg. The Adobe ebook format is not widely used (I wonder if they have been telling authors/publishers it secure even when they knew it wasn't?), but a good example is DVD, with it's region encoding and supported players. The MPAA can effectively dictate where a DVD is sold, decide when to stop licensing players thus killing the market, and decide which formats it can be played on. It is only in April this year that a legal DVD player was finally licensed on Linux. There is still only 1 player licensed, so if you want choice, forget it.
Note that court rulings in the past have said that when a copyrighted item like a book has been sold, the copyright holder has no right to prevent it's resale at any price, anywhere. The new protections being used on DVD, and soon on music, software, books etc, mean that despite those rulings, copyright holders will have the power to decide where an item is resold, when, who can use it etc.
As a quick example, if I buy a piece of software and no longer want it, I can sell it. With the new systems that tie software to hardware, after I have bought a book or piece of music or software, I can't resell it. The courts say I have the right to, but the encryption prevents me from doing so.

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #62 on: July 25, 2001, 04:19:00 PM »
I just reread one of the reasons given for allowing a copy to be made, without breaking copyright:
 
Quote
(1) that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an
essential step in the utilization of the computer program in
conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other
manner, or
As the encrypted Adobe format works only with the specific machine it was bought on, cracking it to use on another machine, providing you still retain the copy and don't distribute it, seems to be expressley allowed.
Sort of like buying a cd rom, but putting the software on floppies to install on an old machine.
Incidentally, by installing a piece of software you are making a copy, so if personal copying isn't allowed, by rights you should destroy the installation cd once the software is installed. After all, you could give that away and keep the copy on your hard disk, couldn't you?

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #63 on: July 25, 2001, 05:55:00 PM »
Nashwan, Yoj - in my opinion you're right.

Unfortunately, opponents will pay no attention to my opinion, because of several reasons: I am supposed to support Dmitriy because I'm Russian too, I am a "known thief" for "stealing iEN's Warbirds" (sorry, it was already mentioned in this thread), and simply because I am Russian - the Evil Commie.

What was said here about public libraries is simply horrible. AFAIR 12 years ago public libraries were free for everyone in the US. Maybe I don't remember correctly - but the only thing I had to pay for was $.10 for renting an LP, that I rented to copy to a cassete. Was a great opportunity for me to bring home some records that were extremely rare in USSR.

Library is an opportunity to READ for people who don't have enough cash to buy books. Even now, if i'll PAY for all the books I read - I'll spend all my income (middle class here in Russia) on books. The right to read is one of the basic rights of an individual. The right to educate himself.

In USSR there was another aspect of library culture. People read so much, that some books, printed in enormous quantities (by Western standards) - 100 000 and more, were impossible to buy. So - photocopying of any books was a common practice. It was a state crime, and xerox machines were guarded as rocket silos - but people still made copies. I read "Alice in Wonderland" translated by Boris Zakhoder from a photocopy, because it was impossible even to find it in library.

Prohibiting copies for personal, or even "communal" (to some extent) use is an outright violation of human rights.

Offline Yoj

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« Reply #64 on: July 26, 2001, 10:12:00 AM »
Boroda, its a shame you're evil by nature, but you DID decide to be born there   :)

I understand the dilemma you describe - in fact, I believe that, for certain types of books, the only way anyone could read them was from illegal copies, since they were considered subversive by the state.  And yet, these were they very books that we in the west wanted you to be able to read.

The problem is that there also has to be a way to ensure that the author is compensated for his work.  As a musician, I understand this very well - if I write something and there is money made from it, some of it should come to me.  If I CHOOSE to give it away, fine, that's my right  - but if I have not expressly donated it to the world at large, I should be compensated for the work I put into it.  James Joyce spent 17 years writing Finnegan's Wake (though some might question why <G> ) - it hardly seems fair that he would get nothing for 17 years of work just because everyone simply copied it and passed it on

There is the problem - if anyone can make copies freely and distribute them as they choose, the author gets nothing.  If I get nothing, I can't make a living writing music, meaning I have to do something else and the music doesn't get written.  If this were the 17th century, maybe I would have a patron to take care of me, but in the 20th I'm on my own.

That is the crux of the matter - people should be able to read, but if the people who write don't get something for their writing there will be nothing to read.  Can you suggest a way that both can be satisfied?

- Yoj

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #65 on: July 26, 2001, 11:30:00 AM »
Yoj, I understand that artists, writers and other creative people have to eat something...

You are a musician, so it may be interesting for you:

AFAIK in the West bands go on tours to promote their records, so people will buy more. In USSR the concept was absolutely different: when you bought a record - you paid for the "information carrier". All records were published by the mighty state. But many bands or singers deliberately spread their records on tapes, absolutely for free - this tapes helped them to "promote" their concerts, that were the real source of income.

Now many Russian musicians ("Aquarium" is probably the most popular among them) deliberately spread their MP3s on the Net, understanding that people who liked the MP3s will probably buy a CD or a tape. The same thing with writers who support Internet libraries like www.lib.ru

Offline fd ski

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« Reply #66 on: July 26, 2001, 11:32:00 AM »
Well Boroda, don't worry, all the reading will change soon..... western culture will swiftly replace it with cool things...

Here is something from my English class at University of Connecticut  :)

teacher asked people "who is their favorite author".
Looks on some faces were just too funny. One guy, when his turn came, prompty said "Hamlet". Funniest thing of it all was that good portion of the class didn't know any better.

Then someone had a brilliant idea "BIBLE" !!! My favorite book is bible and we can't really tell who wrote it, can wee ?
So in the liberal connecituct, well over 50% of kids in liberal college choose bible as their favorite book  :) It was convinence more then anything else, but to think that people in Universities, good ones to boot, don't read ? It makes me want to cry.

Those will be our enlightened leaders to the beacon of freedom and rightousness  :)

Two days ago i spoke to one of my classmates. He was really upset about the fact that 50% of students accepted for the MBA program at our school are not from USA. He was also very pissed about the fact that his brother couldn't pass the english test required for the program and they could. "How the f__k do they do it ?" he asked. In response i asked him what was the last book he read - he didn't remember....

Offline Fatty

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« Reply #67 on: July 26, 2001, 12:11:00 PM »
Believe it or not, I actually feel sorry for Dmitry.  Not because he is innocent, but because it looks like a bunch of idealistic americans probably convinced him that there was nothing the US could do, and he believed them.  Now he's in a really toejamty situation.

I haven't seen the software Nashwan, but I've not even seen it implied here that there is use other than decoding.  Why do we care?  Yes, it would be ideal if all books were free.  It would also be ideal if all gas was free, and all food was free, gee, that would be just great.  In a more realistic world, we attempt to value both intellectual and real property.  This is less out of some noble concern for the creators of it than it is what pays for innovation and progress.  Similar to patent laws, we have to try to reward those whos ideas/products/inventions are being marketed.

I am looking forward to IL-2.  I hope it doesn't get cracked and spread around the world for free, not only in regards to its production but I don't want the next big production to look at what happened to it and say, "screw it."

By the way, public libraries are free.  Some require a membership card to take books home, but all (at least all I have seen) are open to the public to come in and read all they like.  Most university libraries are open to all but will only allow checkout by registered students.

[ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: Fatty ]

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #68 on: July 26, 2001, 12:29:00 PM »
ROFL Ski!
I have had a much different experience though, teaching engineering topics to some very motivated and bright students at a large midwestern university.  However there were plenty of stupid people on campus, just not too many of them in the departments where I taught or took classes.  If there is a decay in the quality of students, it seems to be more in the liberal arts "Would you like fries with that?" majors.

Offline Yoj

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« Reply #69 on: July 26, 2001, 12:56:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda:
Yoj, I understand that artists, writers and other creative people have to eat something...

You are a musician, so it may be interesting for you:

AFAIK in the West bands go on tours to promote their records, so people will buy more. In USSR the concept was absolutely different: when you bought a record - you paid for the "information carrier". All records were published by the mighty state. But many bands or singers deliberately spread their records on tapes, absolutely for free - this tapes helped them to "promote" their concerts, that were the real source of income.

Now many Russian musicians ("Aquarium" is probably the most popular among them) deliberately spread their MP3s on the Net, understanding that people who liked the MP3s will probably buy a CD or a tape. The same thing with writers who support Internet libraries like www.lib.ru

Ah Boroda - that might be fine for pop groups that can sell a live performance.  What about the composer?  All he does is write.  No mobs of kids dancing to his beat.  All he can do is publish and sell the works.  Authors are not going to make a living by touring and reading their books to people (well, the vast majority won't).  So what about them?  

Which brings us to this thread - hat about the person who writes software?  No concerts for him  :)  No - there has to be some system for compensating people for the use of their creations.  The copywrite system we have is outdated and flawed, but its all we have to protect these creators.  If you think there is good reason to do away with it, what takes its place?

- Yoj

Offline fd ski

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« Reply #70 on: July 27, 2001, 09:00:00 AM »
Well Yoj, there is other side to the story as well...

About 2 years ago when the Napster thing exploded, there was a little artcle in New York Times, on a very next page, rather small..
It said something like this:
"All large companies were found to have been coordinating to fix the prices for CDs and Movies by the congrees and were slapped on the wrist"

I pay for my music, but when i do, cost of the creations of it, producing of it, doesn't ammount to the 1/5th of what i'm paying.

Media market is monopolised, anyone who would say otherwise must be oblivious to world around them. Monopoly/Cartel in movies and music has been setting market and killing all the competition for years, and it hurts us, customers. It's a system designed to screw us.

That why i don't believe that all the Napster kids should be impaled and burned on a stake.

PS. My wife just got her masters from Juilliard, she's a cellist. Best job avaialbe to her is in Kentucky state orchestra, 22k per year. Please tell me how the current system works for artists  :)

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #71 on: July 27, 2001, 09:26:00 AM »
Bart, with all due respect for your wife and her (IMO) beautiful talents (I love classical music, actually, I love all music except hard core rap)...I don't think there is a big demand for her profession, is there?

Offline fd ski

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« Reply #72 on: July 27, 2001, 09:52:00 AM »
Actually there is in Europe, where people retained some taste  :)

He's going on tour for 3 months in Belgum - end of August  :)

PARTY !!!!

Offline Yoj

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« Reply #73 on: July 27, 2001, 10:56:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by fd ski:


I pay for my music, but when i do, cost of the creations of it, producing of it, doesn't ammount to the 1/5th of what i'm paying.


Where the money goes is a whole other question (doan get me staaaded!)  So is the industry manipulation of the market.  

My only point was that there has to be protection for "intellectual property" - in this case, the composer.  The performer is another matter.

As for the fair distribution of the rewards in the music business, there isn't any.  roughly 2% of the artists make about 95% of the money, and who they are has a lot to do with hype.  And of course, most of what the consumer pays is for the hype.  

Oh oh - I'm starting to rant....  Sorry!

Hey - I'm a cellist too   :)  Best wishes to your wife - I hope she has a great career, but as you well know, the rewards are other than financial.  I gave up trying to survive on music - now it costs me to play.  So it goes.

The 17th Century patron system did have something to be said for it   :)

Offline fd ski

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« Reply #74 on: July 27, 2001, 11:08:00 AM »
Well, she's out looking for a cello now  ;)
If you would happend to have a spare Montaniana laying around, can she borrow it ?  :)

Arts are useless in capitalistic society, alwyas were always will be. If it doesn't make a profit, why do it ?

I'm happy to pay for keeping her happy. She makes some money of her tours, and i make more then eough for both of us  :)