Author Topic: Spitfire Mk XVI (16) questions (Read 818 times)

EdXCal · « **on:** January 08, 2006, 07:56:32 PM »

I've done a little homework on the spit 16s online, I normaly go to my books but as my Mrs. and I our movin' around our room my books are scarce. But from what I've learned, most spit Mk16s were built in 45', though starting in 44'. It had a 1,700 hp engine (I say this because I've heard 1,400 from others), most had the clipped wings, though I don't know why, I think I'd rather have the full wings. And most were built with the teardrop canopy.

So my question's are, how true is this informations and does anyone know of where I can get any offical information on it? I mean actul RAF documentation on the aircraft. There has been alot of fighting over the abilities of the plane and theres been alot of information about it running around, mostly from Kev whom I'm sure will be among the first to post here! lol

But most of all, I'd like to know the amount of what models had which feacher, how many had teardrop, how many had clipped wings, how many where built total, that sort of thing. I've only found comments in the middle of people *****in' about it back and forth like "3/4th's of the spits had clipped wings", that's interesting but not offical.

Edward

Karnak · « **Reply #1 on:** January 08, 2006, 08:13:47 PM »

As has been said many, many, many, many, many times. The Spitfire Mk XVI is the same as a Spitfire LF.Mk IXe. There is no difference other than the tooling.

1400hp is the MIL output of the engine. 1700 is the WEP. Kev was being disingenuous.

100% were clipped.

It entered service in mid 1944. Bubble tops didn't enter service until March 1945.

Squire · « **Reply #2 on:** January 08, 2006, 08:53:57 PM »

The reason it is was given the designation Spitfire XVI, was because of the US built Packard Merlin 266 engine, so as to differentiate it from the Spitfire IX, with a British built Merlin 66 engine. Slight differences in the tooling prompted the change in designation so as to ease maintenance issues.

It can cause some confusion.

If you want some hard data on the Spitfire IX with a merlin 66 you can get some here: http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spittest.html

Many Spit IXs had clipped wings in 44-45, like Karnak said, all the Spit XVIs that I am aware of did, the bubbletop version (which we dont have) came along in 1945. All of the operational models that I am aware, had the "E" wing with the 50 cals and 20 mm, and the 3 a-g pylons.

Since the Spit XVI was one of the best "low level dogfighter" versions of the Spit in WW2, it was a no brainer that it was going to cause a lot of consternation when it was introduced, especially in the furball MA where it is no surprise that it does well, although I think a lot of the protests are based on the fact that many players use it, which has been a sore point about Spits since Air Warrior.

You can do a search on it, there are already a large # of threads, to say the least.

EdXCal · « **Reply #3 on:** January 08, 2006, 09:06:59 PM »

Thats a nice site and thanks for the info, those offical information on the 16 seems to be slim, but that sight rocks for information on all the other spits, thanks yet again.

Edward

Kev367th · « **Reply #4 on:** January 08, 2006, 09:20:35 PM »

Number made - 1054
Date - Service Oct 1944 onwards

All produced clipped

Only late ones had bubble canopies, dont know how many but one of the last few standard canopy XVI's was produced around Feb 1945 (ser # TB863).
http://www.nzfpm.co.nz/aircraft/mkxvi.htm

1700HP WEP is correct

Identical to 1944 LF IXe

XVI designation to differentiate it from the LF IX with Merlin 66 (different tooling)

Rolled off same production line at Castle Bromwich side by side.

Did read somewhere that originally it had a 'c' wing armament, at the same time it recieved the 'e' wing armament it got the bubble canopy, but its not clear if this is accurate. Trying to confirm or refute this.

Squire · « **Reply #5 on:** January 08, 2006, 09:26:19 PM »

No problemo re the site.

There were some early examples with the C wing Kev, but by the time the version went to service in October 1944, the E wing was standard, as it was on new "late" IXs. So, you can find some, but I doubt any C wing versions flew with 2nd TAF, which was the only organisaton that used it during the war, that I know of. The whole point of the XVI was a fighter-bomber Spitfire, and as such, the E wing with the 3 a-g pylons was essential for that role. I have never seen a photo of a XVI on the Continent 44-45 with a C wing setup, and the unit histories I have that mention the XVI, all have it as a version capable of wing mounted a-g ordnance.

justin_g · « **Reply #6 on:** January 08, 2006, 09:41:19 PM »

NZFPM has a Mk XVI(TB863) with E wing and standard fuselage manufactured in late '44, according to their website they switched production to bubble canopies in Feb '45.

Btw - link to Spitfire Serials: http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/spitfirefactory/production.htm

Kev367th · « **Reply #7 on:** January 08, 2006, 09:51:58 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Squire
No problemo re the site.

There were some early examples with the C wing Kev, but by the time the version went to service in October 1944, the E wing was standard, as it was on new "late" IXs. So, you can find some, but I doubt any C wing versions flew with 2nd TAF, which was the only organisaton that used it during the war, that I know of. The whole point of the XVI was a fighter-bomber Spitfire, and as such, the E wing with the 3 a-g pylons was essential for that role. I have never seen a photo of a XVI on the Continent 44-45 with a C wing setup, and the unit histories I have that mention the XVI, all have it as a version capable of wing mounted a-g ordnance.

Thats what I mean, it's just I read somewhere (can't find it again) that when they got the 'e' wing they received the bubble canopies at the same time.

So-
Start production June 44'ish (was orignally cancelled, reordered as LF IX, built as XVI)
Bubble canopies Feb 45
Last delivery Aug 45

One surviving XVI was originally a 'c' wing type armament ie .303s and 20mm, but using an 'e' wing-
http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/spitfire.html

Ah just realised the confusion - All had 'e' wings but the early one's carried a 'c' wing type armament (.303 + 20mms). Just easier to say 'c' type wing armament than type out the guns fitted. (for me anyway).
Was still an 'e' wing just had the common 'c' wing armament fitted initially.

1K3 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 08, 2006, 11:49:40 PM »

sheeesh Spitfire marks are confusing lol

Guppy35 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 09, 2006, 12:18:02 AM »

Back up a step guys before we get things confused. Spit XVIs came off the line with E wings. This was standard on all the Spits being produced at the time the XVI was reaching the squadrons.

The site on TB752 is wrong Kev. I have the history of that bird. E wing from the start.

Sometimes in the restoration of Spits other wing sets are used that are not the original set and you might see a Universal wing being put onto a Spit that was E wing to start.

There is no correlation between the bubble canopy and the E wing. Spit IXs and XIVs with high backs were reaching the squadrons in the summer of 44. THe bubble top XIVs and XVIs were Spring of 45.

If someone has a photo of an operational Spit XVI with a Universal (C) Wing, I'd love to see it, as I have yet to come across one.

Karnak · « **Reply #10 on:** January 09, 2006, 01:48:35 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by EdXCal
Thats a nice site and thanks for the info, those offical information on the 16 seems to be slim, but that sight rocks for information on all the other spits, thanks yet again.

Edward

Once again, the Mk XVI is an LF.Mk IXe. The performance data for the LF.Mk IX with clipped wings is the same. They are the same fighter.

Squire · « **Reply #11 on:** January 09, 2006, 02:56:35 AM »

For all intent and purpose the XVI always had the E wing, but I beleive there might have been some of the earliest pre delivery versions tested with the C wing, in early 1944, but they are not examples of operational models. In any case its academic, since we are talking about examples that saw service.

The XVI we have in AH is the most common varient, +18 lbs engine, standard canopy, normal clipped wing (for that varient), normal broad chord rudder (for that varient), for a type that saw combat.

In 1945 it was being delivered with a bubble top and was running on 150 octane (+25 lbs boost). Those were the only two "later" improvements the XVI got, from the original, that I am aware.

The LF IX (late) was delivered with the broad chord rudder, and many used clipped wings, and many did not. They also had the E wing. Identical to a XVI except it had a British made Merlin 66 engine. You could not tell them apart unless you could see the serial #s, and many books misidentify one for the other.

MiloMorai · « **Reply #12 on:** January 09, 2006, 04:07:41 AM »

One can see pics of Mile Potter's MkXVI, SL721, here, http://community.webshots.com/album/298527335jdBBxo

This a/c came off the line in Aug 45. I see this Spit flying quite often.

Angus · « **Reply #13 on:** January 09, 2006, 06:18:56 AM »

Originally made bubbletop? And full span wings?

Guppy35 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 09, 2006, 12:37:05 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Squire

The LF IX (late) was delivered with the broad chord rudder, and many used clipped wings, and many did not. They also had the E wing. Identical to a XVI except it had a British made Merlin 66 engine. You could not tell them apart unless you could see the serial #s, and many books misidentify one for the other.

This be true. There are definately examples of bubble top IXes out there as well. Same airframe. Engine was the dif. Merlin 266 or 66. XVI or IX

Image of a low back, full span LFIXe