What is a Spit XVI's weakness

[GRUNHERZ]

Ki84s strength is in the vertical much more so than in turning at slow speed. The Spit 16 simply climbs too well for the Ki84 to get away with it.

[Urchin]

Well, as an added bonus the Ki-84 (like all planes that can fly incredibly slowly) has an itty bitty turning circle.  You can also get around the "moving slowly around the itty bitty turning circle" by cutting across that itty bitty circle in the vertical.

What used to work on some (most) people in a Spit 5 was a regular old flat scissors, except instead of staying horizontal the Ki-84 pilot brings it more and more vertical... at some point the scissors is just to steep for the Spitfire, so the Ki-84 can get behind it that way.  I don't think that would work on the new Spit 16, it simply handles the vertical to well, and it is quite easy to fly slow.

[GRUNHERZ]

Without its vertical advantage the ki84 is just the old spit v with worse mid speed manouverability and worse firepower.  The spit 16 takes away that vertical advantage.

[Kweassa]

Well, here's a bit risky, but very good move to shaking Spits in Ki-84s.

 When the Spit is about 1.5 behind you and closing steadily, with not too much E advantage to the Spit - lure it into a steep spiral climb to left side, keep going until speed hits under 175mph, extend the wonder-flaps and bank a little more, and start a insanely small radius flat-turn horizontally. By this time, the Spit is about 600 yards behind and cannot follow. While he is wallowing in the air, complete the turn and simply, you have his tail.

 From the Spit's point of view, he first sees the Ki-84 about 1.5 in front, climbing into a very tempting spiral climb. It seems so easy to get the Ki-84 - as you follow him up the distance rapidly closes.  However, as the speed gets lower, the Ki-84 will suddenly start looking as if its defying the laws of speed or gravity, and will start a crazy left turn with an incredibly small circle and radius. By this time the Spit's speed is nearing 150mph or under, and pulling any harder left/upwards to get a lead shot to the Ki-84 becomes impossible, as it will stall out the plane. The Ki-84 just plainly turns 360 degrees and lands right behind the Spit.

 Works against all the Spits and the N1K. Doesn't work against Zeros and Hurricanes. Some excellent sharp-shooters can snipe the Ki-84 just as it starts extending flaps and shifts to the pure left-hand flat turn - but it's a pretty rare instance. Frankly, for an average pilot like me, this is about the most powerful reversal I can use against Spits.

 It also works well against the Spit16. The Spit16 is powerful in climbs and verticals, but the Ki-84 still out turns it handily once the flaps are out, not to mention that the Spit16 is the worst turning Spitfire barring the Spit14. That's about the only decisive advantage the Ki-84 can muster against the Spit16. To use this move against Spit16s, you have to start the turn a bit earlier, so the Spit16 tries to grab a lead-angle gun solution and blows a lot of E.

[Loddar]

At a distance of 600-400 yds my guns and cannons blazing in the way my
enemy will go for a deflection shot. Too bad for a Ki to get under the magic
line of 800 yds and turn not that hard turns it every time does.

[Urchin]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Well, here's a bit risky, but very good move to shaking Spits in Ki-84s.

 When the Spit is about 1.5 behind you and closing steadily, with not too much E advantage to the Spit - lure it into a steep spiral climb to left side, keep going until speed hits under 175mph, extend the wonder-flaps and bank a little more, and start a insanely small radius flat-turn horizontally. By this time, the Spit is about 600 yards behind and cannot follow. While he is wallowing in the air, complete the turn and simply, you have his tail.

 From the Spit's point of view, he first sees the Ki-84 about 1.5 in front, climbing into a very tempting spiral climb. It seems so easy to get the Ki-84 - as you follow him up the distance rapidly closes.  However, as the speed gets lower, the Ki-84 will suddenly start looking as if its defying the laws of speed or gravity, and will start a crazy left turn with an incredibly small circle and radius. By this time the Spit's speed is nearing 150mph or under, and pulling any harder left/upwards to get a lead shot to the Ki-84 becomes impossible, as it will stall out the plane. The Ki-84 just plainly turns 360 degrees and lands right behind the Spit.

 Works against all the Spits and the N1K. Doesn't work against Zeros and Hurricanes. Some excellent sharp-shooters can snipe the Ki-84 just as it starts extending flaps and shifts to the pure left-hand flat turn - but it's a pretty rare instance. Frankly, for an average pilot like me, this is about the most powerful reversal I can use against Spits.

 It also works well against the Spit16. The Spit16 is powerful in climbs and verticals, but the Ki-84 still out turns it handily once the flaps are out, not to mention that the Spit16 is the worst turning Spitfire barring the Spit14. That's about the only decisive advantage the Ki-84 can muster against the Spit16. To use this move against Spit16s, you have to start the turn a bit earlier, so the Spit16 tries to grab a lead-angle gun solution and blows a lot of E.

I must not be seeing this right in my head, because if I were the Spit I'd do one of two things.  I'd either point right at you and shoot you as you went into the "spiral climb", or I'd zoom straight up, and hope for the best.  

I also thought that the Spit 16 out-turned the Spit 8, which in turn out-turned the Spit 5 (not sure if that was the old or new Spit 5).

[gatt]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Well, here's a bit risky, but very good move to shaking Spits in Ki-84s.

 When the Spit is about 1.5 behind you and closing steadily, with not too much E advantage to the Spit - lure it into a steep spiral climb to left side, keep going until speed hits under 175mph, extend the wonder-flaps and bank a little more, and start a insanely small radius flat-turn horizontally. By this time, the Spit is about 600 yards behind and cannot follow. While he is wallowing in the air, complete the turn and simply, you have his tail.

 From the Spit's point of view, he first sees the Ki-84 about 1.5 in front, climbing into a very tempting spiral climb. It seems so easy to get the Ki-84 - as you follow him up the distance rapidly closes.  However, as the speed gets lower, the Ki-84 will suddenly start looking as if its defying the laws of speed or gravity, and will start a crazy left turn with an incredibly small circle and radius. By this time the Spit's speed is nearing 150mph or under, and pulling any harder left/upwards to get a lead shot to the Ki-84 becomes impossible, as it will stall out the plane. The Ki-84 just plainly turns 360 degrees and lands right behind the Spit.

Kweassa, Kudos for your ability
However, a good flight model should not permit this kind of moves. In my book this seems clearly a sort of "gaming the game".
Nothing personal, obviously: gamers do what developers allow them to

[Squire]

Got to be carefull with a Ki-84 though, turn too sharp and she can stall nasty on you, you have to ride the edge just right. It can be deceiving untill you hit the wall with it in a turn. If you practice in it as with all things you get the feel of it much better, just like any fighter.

Agree on the tactic above, but you cant misjudge E states, or you will be ashes.

[Mace2004]

Originally posted by gatt
Kweassa, Kudos for your ability
However, a good flight model should not permit this kind of moves. In my book this seems clearly a sort of "gaming the game".
Nothing personal, obviously: gamers do what developers allow them to

Not quite sure why you'd think this is "gaming the game".   I don't fly the KI very much but from his description this maneuver sounds perfectly reasonable.  Slower speed + flaps=smaller turn radius. Transitioning from a spiral climb to a level turn preserves his e (turns his e into turn rate vice climb) while the Spit is still attempting to both climb and turn.  In the scenario Kweassa describes the Spit doesn't have enough e to do both.  If the Spit levels off to match the KI's turn radius he's in a hugely disadvantageous position.  If he attempts to level his wings for a better climb rate the KI gains angles.  He's slow, below the KI and can't match the KI's turn rate/radius or outclimb him anyway.  Advantage KI.  Best option for the Spit would be to either sell it all early to get a hi-deflection shot on the KI or he needs to roll over, dump his nose and dive out the KI's six which is not that hard given XVI's roll rate and acceleration; however, the Spit needs to make the decision to bugout early so he's fast enough to maneuver smartly and gain separation otherwise the KI will just see him attempt to dive out and just pull down on his six.  Of course, all of the above is predicated on Kweassa's phrase "not much e advantage."  If you misread this and the Spit has significantly more e than you thought then he's got you "tree'd" high and slow and can probably do with you whatever he wants.  

Like I said before, I don't fly the KI much but I've noticed nothing magical or game-like in the way it flies.  From what I've heard, the biggest "realism" argument against it is that the Japanese planes aren't modeled with the poor quality Japanese gas which limited their engine performance to less than advertised which would affect its ability to do this.

Mace

[gatt]

Well, what I find difficult to understand is how a spiral climbing (higher) a/c can flip turn and gain the six of another pursuing (lower) aircraft in just one move. Read Kweassa words: the two pilots see two different things, due probably to the lag and the holes in the FM.

Some evenings ago I and my wingie saw a 190A-5 flipping and rolling around like a bat while low and slow on the deck. We all had good connx.

It seems to me a nice "gaming the game". But again: gamers do what they are allowed to do.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Mace2004
From what I've heard, the biggest "realism" argument against it is that the Japanese planes aren't modeled with the poor quality Japanese gas which limited their engine performance to less than advertised which would affect its ability to do this.

The poor Japanese fuel is modeled.

Why else do you think a light, streamlined fighter like the Ki-84, with a 20,000ft critical altitude and a 1,990hp engine only does 392mph?  If it had the good US fuel it would do better than 420mph as in US postwar tests.

The same is true of the N1K2-J.  A 1,900hp engine in a light fighter, topping out at 369mph?  Once again it is the poor Japanese fuel.

[Mace2004]

Originally posted by gatt
Well, what I find difficult to understand is how a spiral climbing (higher) a/c can flip turn and gain the six of another pursuing (lower) aircraft in just one move. Read Kweassa words: the two pilots see two different things, due probably to the lag and the holes in the FM.

Some evenings ago I and my wingie saw a 190A-5 flipping and rolling around like a bat while low and slow on the deck. We all had good connx.

It seems to me a nice "gaming the game". But again: gamers do what they are allowed to do.

I think you're taking what he says a little to literally.  What I do is the same as he does...start a spiral climb then you tighten your turn and drop your nose (and flaps).  You don't immediately do some sort of "flip turn"...you just do a tight, level turn that gets you behind his wingline then you roll in on him.  It's not an immediate turn, it takes a little bit of time.  Another option is that you could also climb up above and then do a rudder reversal to take him head on but that's probably more what people that are being roped expect.  As far as the pilots seeing two different things I'd sa.y that  the Spit isn't seeing what he expected to see in that he doesn't realize the KI is no longer in a spiral climb with low turn rate but had leveled out and has more turn rate available to him and more than the Spit can do since he can't level off.  The KI pilot sees exactly what's happening since he's doing it.  This is nothing to do with lag or the FM, it's the way planes work.

As far as the 190 you mentioned is concerned, we've all seen that.  It's a much different issue.   The 190 is probably "stick stirring" and the update rate can't keep up with it.  Completely different and, for the stick stirrer, you're absolutely right that they're gaming in.  No aircraft (or, more precisely no pilot) can put up with the gyrations and g forces a stick stirrer can generate.

Mace

[gatt]

Originally posted by Mace2004
.... you just do a tight, level turn that gets you behind his wingline then you roll in on him.  It's not an immediate turn, it takes a little bit of time .... the Spit isn't seeing what he expected to see in that he doesn't realize the KI is no longer in a spiral climb with low turn rate but had leveled out and has more turn rate available to him and more than the Spit can do since he can't level off

Ok, I'm trying to understand To position himself behind the Spit's wingline the Ki has to do at least a first (more or less) 135° deg left turn. Then another 135°-180° deg left turn to gain a firing angle on the pursuer. The Spitfire during the Ki's  first turn should be still lower and following in a left climb turn. Then, during the second part of the Ki's turn the Spitfire should be leveled but slow and on the same horizontal plane. Right?
How can an exteremly slow Ki can do such a >300° deg turn and position himself on the rear quarters of a pursuer? Thats amazing for me, the Ki looks like a no-bleeding Energy bat. I have to admit that I'm no skilled at all in such fighting style, but .... really, I'm puzzled.

[Bruno]

In a tight spiral climb you rely on the bad guy trying to pull lead to get a shot at you. As you go up you tighten the turn, the pursuer will pull even tighter to get a 'shot'. Eventually you able to get above and behind his 3/9 line and roll in behind him. It used to work well with the old AH1 109s but now the low speed handling of the 109s is so crappy that you are more likely to loose all input control before you get in enough rotations to reverse. In AH2 with the 109s this would be suicide but it works well with the A6M5, N1k2, Hurri 2c and Ki-84 etc... Even if the pursuer is faster you can force an overshoot and then roll in behind him as he passes wide. You just want to make sure you are behind the 3/9 line before you reverse or he will turn into you for a forced face shot or an easy escape. If you wait to long to reverse he will be outside gun range.

In the tight spiral you just need to balance the vertical climb with the horizontal turn so you don't bleed energy to fast, you just want to keep beyond the pursuers ability to pull lead.

In FB/AEP/PF the 109s do this very well with their high climb rate and steady control at low speeds.

[gatt]

Ah ok, I havent considered the vertical separation. From Kweassa words I understood that during the last phase of the manoeuver both the a/c were almost on the same horizontal plane.