Author Topic: Brokeback Mountain  (Read 9360 times)

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #105 on: January 15, 2006, 03:41:29 PM »
Well, panties are bunching over this movie, but I think most of them are from the Christian right.

If it happened to be a poorly made or written movie it probably wouldn't have even been a dot on the horizon.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies/reviews/brokebackmountain.html

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The film has already earned seven nominations for the Golden Globes, and multiple Oscar nominations are all but certain to follow. Ledger and Williams—who both earned Globes noms—especially stand out, both conveying reams of emotion with dialogue that probably only covers a few pages. But as much as Brokeback Mountain is being touted as a groundbreaking movie for its depictions of homosexuality, it is populated with people with conventional attitudes about homosexuality. And though it's presented as a story of thwarted love—of ache and longing and regrets—it's also ultimately a story about the relationships that shape us … for better and for worse.

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #106 on: January 15, 2006, 03:54:02 PM »
Hollywood conspiracies against the family aside, the movie itself isn't that 'powerful a story'. At least not one that hasn't been told 1,000 times in various formats (forbidden love and the strains on relationships). The acting isn't all that remarkable either.

The reason it is hailed by the Hollywood crowd is the same reasons it is attacked by Fundamentalists. Take away the homosexual aspects and 'its just another movie' that would most likely go by 'unnoticed' by most of us.

I am unsure how 'Hollywood' can launch a campaign against the nuclear family'. Whose kidnapping and forcing the 'nuclear family' to see these types of movies?

Offline wrag

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« Reply #107 on: January 15, 2006, 09:24:00 PM »
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Originally posted by Sandman
As far as I can tell Hollywood has just one agenda.  $$$

Most movies are populist cultural ****.


You ever work around these people?  I MUST DISAGREE with you!  There is an agenda......... makin money while getting the agenda done is just part of it.

Film "Dirty Dancing"  look at it real close!  Many females look upon that film as nearly sacred.  Some seem to consider it the 1st female coming of age flick. What happens in it?  At least 1 felony (at least it was at the time), lies, cons here own father out of some money.  Statutory rape is suggested............

Film "Jungle to Jungle" look at the closing of that film.  What happens?  The girls parents bring her all the way to the jungle.... why?  They tell you.... The boys father speaks of his son becoming a man.... he tells you how.......  This message is sent out to every young person that saw it.

Many of the films that are out now do similar stuff.  AND they make money.

Populist culture????  Really?  OR are they helping, pushing, attempting to create a PREFERED populist culture?
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline FUNKED1

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« Reply #108 on: January 15, 2006, 09:38:46 PM »
I heard this is a movie about cowboys who become studmuffins???
Hollyweird :rolleyes:

Offline Pei

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« Reply #109 on: January 15, 2006, 11:26:31 PM »
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
I heard this is a movie about cowboys who become studmuffins???
Hollyweird :rolleyes:


Dunno, I haven't seen the movie.

Offline Momus--

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« Reply #110 on: January 16, 2006, 07:51:07 AM »
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Originally posted by Seagoon
It's not actually about bucks, it's about agendas and "art." The same applies to most sectors of the media, historically conservative and "traditional" books, radio, and news sells better nationwide than their liberal counterparts, and yet the vast majority of the largest publishing and media conglomerates are still going to push the liberal agenda and the risque content.


Many "popular" productions are trash aimed at the lowest common denominator. If people think they can make a living catering to a more cerebral audience then more power to them. No-one is forcing you or your co-religionists to consume such material. As for your general assertion that the biggest media producers push a liberal agenda, lets see some figures and sources to back that up please.

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Brokeback is no different, its design is "to do good" by promoting an idealized view of homosexuality and even implying that as a lifestyle it is superior to the nuclear family. They'd rather go broke "making a difference for the better in America" than make money selling movies they don't believe in.


I doubt you have any real evidence to support this somewhat paranoid view. They could just as easily be aiming to appeal to the gay demographic, which is often a lucrative market.

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Ah well, as their respective empires came to the end of their courses both the Greek and Roman literary and artistic community attempted to do exactly the same thing. Truly there is nothing new under the sun.


I would dispute this. As far as we can tell the traditional greek ambivalence toward homosexuality was fairly consistent *throughout* the Hellenistic period. As for the Romans, in the later stages of the empire homsexuality was increasingly frowned upon; for example the Emperor Theodosius promulgated a law in 360CE condemning homosexuals to be burned at the stake; hardly the actions of a society becoming increasingly accepting of homosexuality. Remind us what the dominant religion was in Rome during the years of its decline anyway.

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #111 on: January 16, 2006, 09:47:55 AM »
Momus et al,

Guys, I'm tremendously weary of running around harvesting statistics to prove that grass is green and skies are blue. The top grossing movie statistics vs. the fact that producers keep producing movies that aren't going to make mega-bucks prove the essential point that I was making, it clearly isn't only about making money. In fact, at a time when people nationwide are less inclined than ever to go out to the movies only an idiot would suggest that the problem was that there aren't enough "gay cowboy movies". Producing a movie that specifically alienates the most lucrative portion of the movie market: families with children is not exactly the answer to reinvigorating the industry.

MSNBC, the LA Times, the NY Times, the SF Chronicle and a host of other liberal news outlets owed by large media congloms, continue to lose viewers/circulation hand over fist and yet they still keep having money plowed into them and noone dares to suggest Gee, Conservative media is still growing and making money, maybe we should consider a change of content? They don't make the suggestion for exactly the same reasons that many of the posters to this board wouldn't make it - they can't stand that worldview and would rather close down than promote them. Look, I lived in NYC and D.C. and worked in media long enough to know there is a underlying desire to promote a worldview and change the views of "flyover country."

If you want to make money with a film in the gay marketplace, you make a coffee house picture and play it only in the major cities, its called targeted marketing. If you want to promote an agenda, you make a movie that idealizes that agenda and makes the alternative look awful, and then release it nationwide.
 
Hollywood doesn't suddenly become ragingly liberal during presidential election cycles and then just as suddenly conservative in the off season. They really aren't terribly different from the people round here, and they'd rather make money doing what they believe in. The producers who donate huge amounts of money to liberal PACs and frankly have no friends who think differently (you know, attend an evangelical church, vote republican, own guns, don't get divorced every other media cycle) have no real core interest in producing movies with conservative themes.

As for the art and literature of Greece and Rome, if you track the progress of the culture as both began to decline, you saw a progressive increase in the amount of erotica throughout the society generally.  There was a palpable increase in media designed to appeal directly to the gratification of the baser senses - more bloodsports, more pornography, and so on. By the time attempts were made to curb the excesses of Rome, it was already too late, the society had become rotten to the core.

Anyway guys, I don't know whether to be amused or confused by some of the reactions to my earlier post. I simply made the point that its not about money, and that its an agenda flick (both points the mainstream media and even the McPaper for instance have made - although many described the agenda as "love and freedom and tolerance") and that our increasingly eroticised "arts" roughly parallel those of other cultures in decline, and I'm a wild-eyed street-corner looney accused of declaring its the "end of the world." Its almost as though people are reading not what I wrote, but what they believe I should have written as a stoooopid judgmental un-id-jy-cated fundymentalist bible-thumpin' preacher man.

For those of you who are doing that, would it help if I simply made posts that would fit that general caricature? It would certainly take me less time, I mean this stuff is a slam dunk viewed from a scriptural perspective.

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SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #112 on: January 16, 2006, 10:11:09 AM »
The movie shows 2 men who ruin their lives and their families through forbidden love.

Great message huh? Boy howdy those hollywood libs are really sneaking one over on the rest of the country.

What the heck are you guys afraid of? No need to answer, it's obvious. You're afraid that someday people will realize that homosexuality is NOT a choice and that homosexuals should be granted the same respect as any other member of society who has consentual sex with adults. You're afraid that movies like this will increase the understanding and acceptance of the 8-10% of our society who have been ostracized and even killed for their sexual preference. You're terrified that something that is listed as an abomination in the bible might turn out to be no more of an abomination than eating shellfish.

What really sickens me is how some can call for the outright hatred of an entire group of people using religion as an excuse. " Oh no MT, we don't hate anyone, just their actions"..... which they have as much control over as you have over your breathing.

 Sickening.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #113 on: January 16, 2006, 10:22:13 AM »
well... I hope hollywood continues to make "niche" movies... some of the things I like are not all that popular like Hot Rods or WWII aviation battles.

I don't expect that these movies will get showered with awards before they come out or have some of the best and brightest in hollywood working and staring in em...   mostly, if they do good it is because they have some new talent that is emerging and are just plain good.... they often become "cult" classics.

I don't care if hollywierd makes gay movies... I don't care if the spend a fortune on em.... I just don't want to see em and I think it is insulting that they are pretending to not have an agenda that has nothing to do with money.

lazs

Offline FUNKED1

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« Reply #114 on: January 16, 2006, 11:56:22 AM »
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homosexuality is NOT a choice

:rofl

Offline Momus--

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« Reply #115 on: January 16, 2006, 12:49:03 PM »
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Guys, I'm tremendously weary of running around harvesting statistics to prove that grass is green and skies are blue.


You've either got facts to support your case or you haven't. Appeal to Belief isn't a particularly compelling argument.

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The top grossing movie statistics vs. the fact that producers keep producing movies that aren't going to make mega-bucks prove the essential point that I was making, it clearly isn't only about making money.


Lazs nailed this argument. You are basically arguing against any kind of niche product by saying that if a producer isn't going for the maximum possible profit with his product but is rather content to take a reduced level of return then this somehow indicates the presence of a unwholesome agenda.

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In fact, at a time when people nationwide are less inclined than ever to go out to the movies only an idiot would suggest that the problem was that there aren't enough "gay cowboy movies". Producing a movie that specifically alienates the most lucrative portion of the movie market: families with children is not exactly the answer to reinvigorating the industry.


So how many other Gay cowboy movies can you list? How about none? Again, you are arguing for an inspid risk averse film industry that caters to the lowest common denominator.

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MSNBC, the LA Times, the NY Times, the SF Chronicle and a host of other liberal news outlets owed by large media congloms, continue to lose viewers/circulation hand over fist and yet they still keep having money plowed into them and noone dares to suggest Gee, Conservative media is still growing and making money, maybe we should consider a change of content? They don't make the suggestion for exactly the same reasons that many of the posters to this board wouldn't make it - they can't stand that worldview and would rather close down than promote them. Look, I lived in NYC and D.C. and worked in media long enough to know there is a underlying desire to promote a worldview and change the views of "flyover country."


Again, more bunker dwelling paranoia that you can't back up empirically.

MSNBC is ultimately owned by General Electric. You think the largest conglomerate on the planet has a liberal bias? You're bascially arguing against the application of market forces in the media and entertainment industry. Are you a communist?

The biggest selling newspaper in the UK preaches family values yet features nude women on its pages and spins every issue at a ridiculously over-simplified level. Its owner is a potato who habitually sells his political support to the highest bidder. Is this seriously what you are arguing in favour of?

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If you want to make money with a film in the gay marketplace, you make a coffee house picture and play it only in the major cities, its called targeted marketing. If you want to promote an agenda, you make a movie that idealizes that agenda and makes the alternative look awful, and then release it nationwide.


And the film in question is idealizing homosexuality? You're on your own in that conclusion I think. Whats more, if an investor wants to shoulder the risk of a mass release then more power to them. they are not forcing you to watch.

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As for the art and literature of Greece and Rome, if you track the progress of the culture as both began to decline, you saw a progressive increase in the amount of erotica throughout the society generally.  There was a palpable increase in media designed to appeal directly to the gratification of the baser senses - more bloodsports, more pornography, and so on. By the time attempts were made to curb the excesses of Rome, it was already too late, the society had become rotten to the core.


You're twisting your original argument to include all erotica when your original premise related to the social acceptance of homosexuality as demonstrated by art as being related to social decline. The initial argument is palpaple nonsense because attitudes towards homsexuality were more permissive in both the greek and roman examples at the start of each culture's dominance than during the decline. Not one single mainstream scholar that I can think of attributes the decline of the roman empire to a rise in sexual permissivess. Enlighten me if I am wrong.

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For those of you who are doing that, would it help if I simply made posts that would fit that general caricature? It would certainly take me less time, I mean this stuff is a slam dunk viewed from a scriptural perspective.
[/b]

It was my impression that that was what you were doing already.

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #116 on: January 16, 2006, 01:02:02 PM »
How many of those of you who are 'outraged by the Hollywood Homosexual Agenda' are going to see the movie? or will be 'tricked' into seeing it?

Just how is it being 'forced on you'? or targeted at destroying your values? It seems to me you just wouldn't watch it. Are you upset that others may go to see it?

Either way these are stupid arguments. As such what it comes down to is that some of you are are appalled by the mere existence of homosexuality. This has little to do with what this particular movie may or may not portray or whatever agenda those in Hollywood may have.

Offline Pooh21

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« Reply #117 on: January 16, 2006, 01:05:27 PM »
I am not going to go see it.
Bis endlich der Fiend am Boden liegt.
Bis Bishland bis Bishland bis Bishland wird besiegt!

Offline wrag

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« Reply #118 on: January 16, 2006, 01:56:35 PM »
OK  here ya go.

Don't care what you say.  Many of the people in Hollywood do have a private agenda when they make films.  Seems like many DON'T see the agenda if it's something they WANT or believe in.  Then it's not an agenda it's art? Someone already posted some information regarding major grossing films in this thread.

Persoanly I'm neither for nor against Gays/les.  I treat them NO different then any other people.  I do require they keep their hands to themselves however.  NOTE : I don't care to be touched.  Personal preference.  I know too many things.  I don't even like people to get within 3 feet of me.  I would probably hate europe and the culture because I see them getting soooo close to each other.  Even lost a few girlfriends over it.  I do however hug my sons.  Hugged my father and mother when they were alive.  Whole different thing here IMHO.

I am really tired of the Gay Agenda being FORCED on everyone and our children.  I think the heavy petting/kissing in public, the very near sex acts in public are unneeded and classless.  But I don't care if that type of activity is Homo or Hetro, I disapprove of it.

Forcing the children against the parents will to participate in the gay/les thing, the moslem thing etc... is very bad form IMHO and goes against what family and this nation is about IMHO.

But then I guess I'm old school here.  I believe people OWE each other good manners.  That those with no or poor manners have NO CLASS.

OK go ahead and label me............. label me big time!!!!  Cause I firmly believe our culture is being destroyed.  Our culture is what made us so strong and it is in the way of someones agenda and it is being destroyed.  And quite possibly us and more importantly our way of life with it.  Been around awhile and that is what I've come to believe.

Do some things need changing?  Did some things need changing? Yes.  The manner in which the changes are made, and are being made, and just how far they are going with those changes is disturbing though!

I also find this male bashing thing to be really irratating.  Just watched "the Pacifier"  watched the little girls beat the snot out of the little boys.  Saw the way boys were portrayed.  "Everyone Loves Raymond" is NOT a show I care for.  Hollywierd..............

I further say that if christians are barred from school YOU BETTER bar the moslems as well.  and the budhist, and the hindus, etc... etc... etc...  LOSE the double standard!
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #119 on: January 16, 2006, 02:02:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
The movie shows 2 men who ruin their lives and their families through forbidden love.

Great message huh? Boy howdy those hollywood libs are really sneaking one over on the rest of the country.

What the heck are you guys afraid of? No need to answer, it's obvious. You're afraid that someday people will realize that homosexuality is NOT a choice and that homosexuals should be granted the same respect as any other member of society who has consentual sex with adults. You're afraid that movies like this will increase the understanding and acceptance of the 8-10% of our society who have been ostracized and even killed for their sexual preference. You're terrified that something that is listed as an abomination in the bible might turn out to be no more of an abomination than eating shellfish.

What really sickens me is how some can call for the outright hatred of an entire group of people using religion as an excuse. " Oh no MT, we don't hate anyone, just their actions"..... which they have as much control over as you have over your breathing.

 Sickening. [/B]


There's that victim mentality, I knew it'd come along soon.