Author Topic: 109 Flaps  (Read 9034 times)

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #150 on: January 30, 2006, 09:18:13 PM »
Quote
Same goes for the being less than truthfull - your the one that said "regardless of what HT has said" NOT me.
The obvious conclusion being that you don't think HT is being totally forthcoming or honest.


That's the conclusion you reached all on your own. It's typical of you to reach for the most sinister conclusion (see HT hates Spitfires). The 109s FM may not have changed, but as DoKGonZo said, it could very well be be some other issue unrelated directly to 'FM' that is affecting the 109s handling. I don't presume to know what it could be but there's is clearly something 'different' and it has been noticed by any number of folks, not all them LW aircraft fans.

Regardless,  of what said HT in regards to 'no FM change' something is different. If you want to assume HT is lying then that has nothing to do with me or what I have written in this thread.

You can not mask your paranoia by changing the subject and throwing out baseless counter accusations. Your 'hysterics' in regards to the Spitfire are well documented on this forum for any one to read. As I said that cross is obviously chafing...

Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #151 on: January 30, 2006, 10:22:28 PM »
Yawn
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Offline Angus

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« Reply #152 on: January 31, 2006, 02:51:16 AM »
So, yawn, maybe that's the right thing to do.
By the way, before going further:
1. Where can the Farnborough test be found,- like online?
2. I recall a calculation of TAS to IAS and the reverse. Does anyone know where it is.
3. And the same, Mach at alt, - or actually temperature
4. Typical temp at alt.

If anyone has this handy, I would be delighted.

Then, we can find the .8 WALL :D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline gripen

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« Reply #153 on: January 31, 2006, 03:14:02 AM »
Angus,
Just search the PRO catalogue under department DSIR with search terms like "high AND speed", "dive", "Spitfire", "Thunderbolt" etc. and limit year range to say 1942-1948. You will get tons of reports on RAE high speed research (theoretical and experimental), note that there is plenty of NACA reports also among results.

gripen

Offline Knegel

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« Reply #154 on: January 31, 2006, 05:55:53 AM »
Hi,

Grump, in one point you be particular wrong:

You wrote this; "Your point of aspect ratio is linked to drag. Higher the aspect ratio the lower the drag.", but this only count for relative slow speeds(around up to mach0.6, depending to the aspectratio) and specialy flights with a positive aoa. A aspectratio of zero is of course the best for highspeed. Every rocket have, better sayed miss, such a wing. :D

At higher speeds a smal aspectratio is more usefull, cause the airmasses can get shifted away sideward, to avoid shockwaves, arrowed wings are even better.

But as i wrote, even the Me163(very smal aspectratio), neighter the Me262 was able to fly at speeds above mach0,85(without to crash cause the controlls stopped to work or the wings got off due to shockwaves).

Drag like we know it from speeds below mach0,6 is not that important anymore. To bring away the air masses to avoid shockwaves is important to minimize the drag at high mach numbers.

I realy doubt that a Spitfire wing, with its washouts and very old airfoil, and its fuselage, with the upward mounted engine, was able to reach such mach numbers.

The P51 semi laminar airfoil was much advanced at highspeed(compare the Vmax with same engine,and  this although the P51 is much more heavy), but even this heavy plane(more downward thrust) wasnt able to dive that fast.

Of course we can believe what we want, but the probabilitys are not good for the default WWII Spit.

Greetings, Knegel

Offline Angus

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« Reply #155 on: January 31, 2006, 06:02:15 AM »
Shockwaves at the wing occur because the speed of the airflow over it is approaching the speed of sound.
Basically the wing is about to "push it"
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline justin_g

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« Reply #156 on: January 31, 2006, 06:48:50 AM »
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Going by the POH recommendations of the Spitfires series it seems highly unlikely the measured results are absolutely accurate.


The dive limits in the Pilots Notes for the Spitfire correspond to 0.85 Mach.

For P-51D, POH limit is 0.75M - but it mentions that "porpoising" motions did not start until 0.8M.

Me 109 manuals indicate dive limits corresponding to about 0.75M too, but the pilot for the dive trials reported "rolling motions" started at 0.8M.

Offline Knegel

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« Reply #157 on: January 31, 2006, 07:13:22 AM »
Hi,

the Spitfire manual give a dive limit of around 1030km/h????

Greetings, Knegel

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #158 on: January 31, 2006, 07:26:56 AM »
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The dive limits in the Pilots Notes for the Spitfire correspond to 0.85 Mach.


That's why both German fighters have higher limits.

All the best,

Crumpp

Offline justin_g

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« Reply #159 on: January 31, 2006, 08:32:04 AM »
From "Spitfire IX, XI & XVI Pilots Notes"
Quote
52. Flying limitations
(i) Maximum speeds m.p.h. (knots) I.A.S.
Diving (without external stores), corresponding to a Mach. No. of 85:
Between
  • S.L. and 20,000ft. - 450 (385)
  • 20,000 & 25,000ft. - 430 (370)
  • 25,000 & 30,000ft. - 390 (335)
  • 30,000 & 35,000ft. - 340 (292)

Above
  • 35,000ft. - 310 (265)


And Bf 109G-6/U4 flugzeug-handbuch states:
Quote
Sturzflug in 0 bis 4 km Höhe . . . . . . . . . . 750 km/h
Sturzflug in 4 bis 5 km Höhe . . . . . . . . . . 700 km/h
Sturzflug in 5 bis 7 km Höhe . . . . . . . . . . 600 km/h
Sturzflug in 7 bis 9 km Höhe . . . . . . . . . . 500 km/h


Apart from altitudes less than 4km, the Spitfire IX dive limits are higher than the Bf 109(Spitfire XIV & XIX Pilots Notes list 470mph under 20,000ft).

Offline gripen

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« Reply #160 on: January 31, 2006, 08:39:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Knegel

I realy doubt that a Spitfire wing, with its washouts and very old airfoil, and its fuselage, with the upward mounted engine, was able to reach such mach numbers.


There was nothing special in the Spitfire wing, the main reason for relatively low drag rise at high mach numbers and low Cl was simply that the profile was relatively thin (IIRC about 12% in MAC). This can be confirmed from theoretical profile data as well from experimental data (flight testing and wind tunnel testing).

gripen

Offline MiloMorai

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« Reply #161 on: January 31, 2006, 09:00:24 AM »
Just so Crumpp can see better:

Sturzflug in 0 bis 4 km Höhe (13,123'). . . . . . . . . . 750 km/h > 466mph
Sturzflug in 4 bis 5 km Höhe (16,404') . . . . . . . . . . 700 km/h > 435mph
Sturzflug in 5 bis 7 km Höhe (22,966'). . . . . . . . . . 600 km/h > 373mph
Sturzflug in 7 bis 9 km Höhe (29,528'). . . . . . . . . . 500 km/h > 311mph

Offline Angus

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« Reply #162 on: January 31, 2006, 11:17:32 AM »
NEIN; ES KANN NICHT PASSIEREN, EIN SPITFEUER IN SCHNELLSTURZFLUG SO NAH VOM BODEN OHNE ABSTURZ, DASS GEHT EINFACH NICH.


Ooops, I trolled
:D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline DoKGonZo

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« Reply #163 on: January 31, 2006, 11:33:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
NEIN; ES KANN NICHT PASSIEREN, EIN SPITFEUER IN SCHNELLSTURZFLUG SO NAH VOM BODEN OHNE ABSTURZ, DASS GEHT EINFACH NICH.

...


My hovercraft is full of eels.

Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #164 on: January 31, 2006, 12:22:12 PM »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Angus
NEIN; ES KANN NICHT PASSIEREN, EIN SPITFEUER IN SCHNELLSTURZFLUG SO NAH VOM BODEN OHNE ABSTURZ, DASS GEHT EINFACH NICH.

...
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Your father was a hamster, and your mother smelt of elderberries?
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