If Pigs had wings....

[AKFokerFoder+]

I have too much time on my hands, I am in a place where I can’t really play on-line, I am away from home at a Hotel and will be until Sunday or this weekend.  Even though I have been working very long hours, my mind is on a problem.

Here is the problem.

In Spitfires High, we are supposed to have the most realistic flight models of any flight sim.  At least that is the common belief held by most of us, myself included…

However, we have without a doubt, irrefutable evidence that the 109s could deploy their flaps at very high speeds.

Now, imagine a Jug that couldn’t deploy it’s flaps until 180 mph. Or a Pony??? Or a Hog, or a F6, etc.  

Can you just imagine what pigs they would be??? Who would fly them??

Now if we are in a game that can’t get the flaps right on the 109s, what else is not modeled right?  Was the Hog, an airplane with an actually combat record of over 11 kills for each Hog shot down, really the dog it is in AH?  Given the data posted on the manufacturers website, we can be a bit hesitant to say the real Hogs were as poor as they are in here.  And we know that the F4U-4 was a 1944 airplane that saw lots of heavy combat in late WW2. We know that they often carried 4 20mm Hispanos  F4U-4

•   F4U-4B: This airplane was equipped with four 20-mm cannons instead of 50-caliber machine guns (used in the early F4U-4 production) and eight 5-inch rockets under wings or up to 4,000 pounds on centerline and pylon racks. Vought built 297.
•   F4U-4C: Many F4U-4’s became F4U-4C’s with four 20-mm cannons in the wing instead of six 50-caliber machine guns which were used in the early F4U-4 production.

By the end of 1944, Chance Vought was turning out 300 Corsairs a month, or one complete airplane every 82 minutes.  A total of 5,380 F4U’s were built during the year (1944)  of those planes 40% were the -4 models.
2045 F4U-4 and  F4U-4C were built. And 297 F4U-4B were built.
More F4U-4s were built than -1D’s

Yet this obviously abundant aircraft, is perked to the roof in a MA that lets Spit16s and LA7s run around unperked,

We know that the data has been presented showing that the 190s also had flaps that would deploy at much higher speeds.  And the TA152 is not even close to reality modeled.

There is so much eveidence that the planes are not modeled correctly, or that damage by American high velocity 50 cal shells was much more effect than modeled in the game. German 20mms were very nasty, but not in Spitfires High.

We know that many planes had almost infinite wep, but if wepped to long, engine life was greatly shortend.  Wep isn’t modeled correctly.
Views are porked in some planes, WEP in others, stall characteristics in some planes are very suspect…

It just makes you wonder about what you don’t know…..

But if Pigs could fly, they would be become  a 109 or a Hog in Spitfires High.

[Krusty]

well first of all you say "imagine flying a jug without flaps" as if its a foreign concept. Well it WAS! Rarely were they used like AH, and they did not work like AH. I hate to say it but IL2's "super speed brake" flaps are more realistic than these uber flaps in AH. No penalties for dropping 100% flaps, a p47 (heaviest US plane in the war, by all descriptions a sluggish pig) can out turn almost any oher plane in the game, and do it at 80mph without the slightest fear of a harsh stall or spin/departure.

Lots of wrong things in this game. They won't ever get "fixed" -- it's just not going to happen in our lifetimes.

EDIT: P.S. all F4U4's after the "F4U-4" were post war, made after the war.

[Morpheus]

Is it so hard to imagine a world that is not perfect... Then realize its the very same world you live in?

While I agree there are some things that are just not right, like the Bf109's flaps... and need fixing. I also understand that HTC has their hands more than full with a little thing called Combat Tour. They're doing their best to get CT released. Do you think they dont want to have it out asap? It's going to be another way for them to make money, and another way for them to grab more players. That's a good thing. Isnt it?

Think about how much work goes into making the game run. Then think about how many people are actually at HTC working on making the game run, and run dam good for that matter. I dont know about you people, but for me I think long and hard before I piss and moan about something that I dont like or that could be fixed, for that exact reason.

I really dont think some of you guys give this company enough credit for what they've done, and keep on doing. Rather alot seem to knock it for what they havent done.

[MIShill]

This is, first and foremost, a game. The model doesn't have to be totally accurate. This is just an opportunity to "fly" "planes" that all vary a bit in how they react- allowing you to pick a "plane" that suits your style and mood. I love the C205- it certainly wasn't as capable in real life as the one in the game, but its modeled attributes fit my style of play. Relax, be happy, play. Btw, my uncle flew, successively in WWII p-39, p-40, p-38 (mostly), & finished in p-51. In his opinion, flight sims under-model the capabilities of the Stang in the real combat world.
-MI-{Shillelagh}

[gnubee]

I think there is something inherent in virtual game play that people don't always take into account when they critique a flight model or something...

When these birds flew, they would typically face 1, 2, or 3 types of fighter oppostion at a time (At most...) and usually all with similar flight characteristics, so it was possible to play to your strengths and stay alive. (Please don't think I'm minimizing the effort or sacrifice of those who put their lives on the line in the real virsions of these machines...that's not my intent).

Frankly, if I'm fly'n a Hog vs a Zeke (and it could be multiple zeke's) it is very easy to stay alive, unless I feel like fly'n stupid.  I know the strengths of both planes, and you just stick to what you've got.

But in the virtual world of the main arena things change and change quickly.  

For example, my 1 hog vs a zeke has just been joined by an enemy pony, or La, or 190... now they have the flight envelope covered...  If I run from the zeke, the pony will catch me... If I out turn the pony the zeke will eat me up.  And suddenly I'm wondering how this plane ever had a kill ratio of 11 to 1.  

It's not that my plane is under modeled, its just that Forrest was right.  Con's are like a box of chocolates... u never know what you're gonna get.

Just my $.02

[eilif]

There are alot of things to complain about in every sim you get in, some model realism great but dont have game play, some model game play well but lack realism, in the end you might as well get a life and stop complaining, if your going to argue plane performance and realism stuff i have found its best to leave it off these forums, try out the Simhq boards or in a non sim based aviation community. When it comes down to it each plane made had a wide range of performance depending on how it was machined, tuned, and maintained, which makes up for alot of flubs on sim developers part. These days as long as the plane hits the numbers and doesnt feel like its flying on rails im happy, most AH planes feel pretty good, there are defanantly some that are needing some attention but its not worth complaining about.

[Saxman]

VERY good point, gnu. The Corsair really exemplifies how the success of craft is skewed by the nature of the MA.

I can't wait for CT to move to the PTO so I can fly my F4U where she was truly dominant (I'm definately of the camp that contends the Corsair was really the superior fighter over the F6F).

[Oleg]

Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
Was the Hog, an airplane with an actually combat record of over 11 kills for each Hog shot down, really the dog it is in AH?

Real hogs never fought against spits, ponies, LAs and all of them together. Go to CT mid/late PTO setup to feel the difference.
Comparison RLs and AH MAs results is plain stupid.

P.S. Damn you Sandmax

[Saxman]

Of the three the Spit is really the toughest kill for an F4U (makes me wonder why so many Spits insist on HOing me, I've been HOed by more Spits than anything ). The Corsair can handle the P-51 and La-7 on relatively even ground (actually, I'd say the F4U holds an edge over the Pony, especially when there's no room for the Runstang to nose down, and even then the Corsair can drop out of the sky like a cement block).

[Pooface]

omfg, if there is one thing that annoys me more it is a hoing spit16. i think the high numbers and apparent lack of skill is because a lot of noobs like to fly them. they all get told to fly spitfire 5's, and think they're big boys, i'll go to the mk16, because its faster and a bigger number  but, everyone complains about these noobs in spits, why dont you just kill them and be done with it.


what i think the funniest part of the anti spit whines is that they always mention 'noobs being able to kill me'. just learn to fly a bit smarter, and give em a good seal bashing. either that, or if you had a good fight with a better pilot, send a salute. i dont know why it evades people like that.


oh, and  a little secret, best way to avoid spit16 HO is to go straight at them, roll inverted, push forward on stick(making you climb with an odd angle of attack, hard to lead and ho right), chop throttle and split-s right before you pass, get on their six and kaboom!

[Widewing]

I think we need Skuzzy to set-up a new forum, the title of which should be "Cry Babies".

That way we could consolidate all of the whines in one location, giving us the opportunity to avoid them altogether.

I listened to several guys boohooing about the 109 flight model in the MA the other night. Ironically, two the these gents were in Spitfire Mk.16s at the time. I invited them to the TA where they could up the fighter of their choice and I would take any model of the 109 they felt was porked. All declined the opportunity..... I wasn't surprised. Most chronic complainers blame the flight models for their woes rather than examine their shortcomings as pilots. They were not interested in reafirming what they already know in their hearts... It's not the flight model that needs improvement, it's them.

I've heard and seen the following whines:

1) 109s are unstable (they are not)
2) 109 flaps should be deployable at lower speeds (yes they should, but you don't need flaps to win)
3) Luftwaffe guns are porked (Odds are that they couldn't hit a parked B-24 anyway)
4) The Ta 152 is modeled completely wrong (this is a high altitude fighter that really rocks up where it's supposed to be flown)

I personally enjoy the 109s and 190s. Both types can be flown with great success providing you fly them correctly. I have no trouble killing with their guns, albeit finding it tough to take down a B-24 with a 109F-4 (which is undergunned for that purpose, but blame the designers not HTC). I have found the 109K-4 to be one of the best fighters in the game. You must learn how to use its strengths.

Ever wing up with Urchin when he's up in a Ta 152? You'll realize that the 152 is a very able fighter if you do.

My point is that the current scapegoat for sucky flying is the flight models.

Crying about being out-turned in a Spit16 by a Jug is rediculous. This simply cannot happen. What happened was that the Spit driver allowed the Jug driver to gain angles, but the Spit driver lacks understanding of how that can happen or how to avoid it. I saw another whine about being out-turned by a Typhoon... Again, he wasn't out-turned, he was out-flown.

Finally, last night I listen to some people commenting on the inability of certain fighters to be competitive. So, we flew some duels and demonstrated that each aircraft mentioned was quite competitive if you knew how to exploit its strengths.

It boils down to this. Some flight models need correcting, there's no debate from me. Nonetheless, these aircraft are still very capable of winning provided the pilot has the skills.

So, my suggestion is stop looking at the flight models and start looking at your own abilities, because therein is the crux of the problem.

Oh, and by the way, F4U-4s first saw combat in February of 1945. No cannon armed F4U-4s saw combat in WWII. Our F4U-4 is perked because it is one of the best fighters in the game, THE best IMHO.

My regards,

Widewing

[TDeacon]

Krusty,

Some of your statements appear to be exaggerated, which damages your credibility, and makes it less likely that the changes to German a/c you want will ever be implemented.  

I have been flying mostly P-51b lately, due to the artwork (didn't use US planes much before).  Note that:

With my control settings, the P51-b is a noticeably less stable gun platform with (any) flaps deployed, so this isn't just German planes.  

Real P-51b pilots used flaps in combat; note the following from "The Debden Warbirds", page 58:

"I turned toward them and identified them as Me 109s.  I attacked from their 9 o'clock.  They broke into me, and we went around and around in a port-climbing orbit.  At about 13,000 feet, I started getting deflection.  Two of the e/a broke starboard out of the turn and started for the deck.  I picked up my flaps, turned, and chased.  Fo a second it looked as if I wasn't closing, so I took two short bursts at about 800 yards just for meanness.  I noticed I was closing rapidly.  I chopped everything, let down my flaps (20 degrees), and closed to about 50 yards on the #2 e/a.  He turned starboard as I fired, and I observed many strikes on the bottom and the top-side of the fuselage and the wing root.  When I closed my throttle, I screwed my trim so that I started sliding out to the left.  As I slid by, I saw his starboard wing crumple about two feet from the wing-root.  I then slid right into the #1 e/a and fired.  I observed five or six good hits on his fuselage, underside, and just back of the cockpit.  I Slid on past to his port, picked up my flaps, and followed him down in a gentle diving turn from 3,000 feet... "  (etc).

[Hades55]

Originally posted by MIShill
This is, first and foremost, a game. The model doesn't have to be totally accurate. This is just an opportunity to "fly" "planes" that all vary a bit in how they react- allowing you to pick a "plane" that suits your style and mood. *****I love the C205- it certainly wasn't as capable in real life as the one in the game,***** but its modeled attributes fit my style of play. Relax, be happy, play. Btw, my uncle flew, successively in WWII p-39, p-40, p-38 (mostly), & finished in p-51. In his opinion, flight sims under-model the capabilities of the Stang in the real combat world.
-MI-{Shillelagh}

C 205 in real life was a spit killer over malta and the terror of spit pilots.
His only problem, was loosing (crack and separation from the craft)  elevators in very fast dives.

[uberhun]

My $ .02 is this. For what HTC is trying to pull off and the product he gives us consistently. I enjoy spending my $14.95 month in, month out. But if it were say............$ 14.96:O  well thats a differnt story now isn't it?

[Lazerr]

haha, your calling the f4u a dog in AH?


I'd like to fight me in f4u, and you in every plane in the game, the only two planes that would be difficult to kill would be the a6m and the hurricane.  

Dweeeeeeeebs...