Rules for a Gunfight

[Hangtime]

A now closed thread sparked a lively local discussion with some friends.. one of which happens to be a former CIA field guy. He's a pretty good shot (understatement) with a pistol, but is kinda lost around rifles. I've been spending time bringing him up to speed on Rifle Skills, he's been sharing knowledge and skill with handguns. We have a blast at the range, and some very interesting discussions in the diner afterwards.

When I travel with my rifles, they are in the back of the van, locked with the ammo in a seperate locked case. Traffic stops are not uncommon in the vicinity of the range and there's stories of illegal searches and seizures of weapons not carried legally.

In essence, because I don't have a pistol permit, I'm prohibited from handling, carrying, transporting or owning a pistol. Period. (NY State) My buddy OTOH, has a CC permit and he blandly stated "I'm armed every moment of my life.. even in the crapper and when I'm in the shower it's hanging on the wall next to the shower door and the bathroom door is LOCKED.'

I thought that might be a bit extreme and said so.. in my 56 years I've never stumbled into a situation where the instant availability of a hand weapon saved my life or any others in my presence... He said, "Me neither. And I've been around a bit. However you should be aware that contrary to popular belief there are in fact 'RULES' for a gunfight. If you own a weapon, long or small; you need to be aware of them. They MUST become part and parcel for your plan of the day, everyday. The fact that you and I have entirely different backgrounds and life experiences (and armament) impacts not one bit the rules for survival of a gunfight. Look 'em up. They're on the net. And when you find 'em read very carefully rule number 23. THATS why you and I are not likely to ever be forced to pull a trigger. One last thing.. the most significant thing about a weapon... ANY weapon... is it's presence. All things devolve from THAT."

Intersting food for thought, yes? For your edification and courtesy of the US Navy Seals website:

Rules For a Gunfight

1.    Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.

2.    Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.  

3.    Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

4.    If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.

5.    Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)

6.    If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.

7.    In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance,or tactics. They will only remember who lived.

8.    If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading,and running.

9.    Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel pisses in the flintlock of your musket."

10.   Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

11.   Always cheat, always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.

12.   Have a plan.

13.   Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.

14.   Use cover or concealment as much as possible. Know the difference between them.

15.   Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.

16.   Don't drop your guard.

17.   Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.

18.   Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.)

19.   Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.

20.   The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

21.   Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

22.   Be courteous to everyone. Friendly to no one.

23.   Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

24.   Do not attend a gun fight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4".

[Sandman]

US Marine Corps Rules for Gunfights

1. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
2. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.
3. Have a plan.
4. Have a back-up plan, because the first one probably won't work.
5. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone
you meet.
6. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun whose caliber does
not start with a "4."
7. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is
cheap. Life is expensive.
8. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend.
(Lateral & diagonal preferred.)
9. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.
10. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.
11. Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the
one you lose.
12. In ten years, nobody will remember the caliber, stance,
or tactics. They will remember who lived.
13. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating.

Navy SEALS Rules For Gunfights

1. Look very cool in sunglasses.
2. Kill every living thing within view.
3. Return quickly to looking cool in latest beach wear.
4. Check hair in mirror.

US Army Rangers Rules For Gunfights

1. Walk in 50 miles wearing 75 pound ruck while starving.
2. Locate individuals requiring killing.
3. Request permission via radio from "Higher" to perform killing.
4. Curse bitterly when mission is aborted.
5. Walk out 50 miles wearing a 75 pound ruck while starving.

Army Rules For Gunfights

1. Select a new beret to wear
2. Sew combat patch on right shoulder
3. Change the color of beret you decide to wear

US Air Force Rules For Gunfights

1. Have a cocktail
2. Adjust temperature on air-conditioner
3. See what's on HBO
4. Determine "what is a gunfight"
5. Request more funding from Congress with a "killer" Power Point presentation
6. Wine & dine 'key' Congressmen, invite DoD & defense industry executives
7. Receive funding, set up new command and assemble assets
8. Declare the assets "strategic" and never deploy them operationally
9. Tell the Navy to send the Marines

US Navy Rules For Gunfights

1. Go to Sea
2. Drink Coffee
3. Watch porn
4. Send the Marines

[StarOfAfrica2]

[2Slow]

Nice thread.  I was a Security Policeman in the USAF for 20 years.

In 1979 I was the 8th Airforce Top Gun at the Rifle and Revolver Matches.  These were combat rapid fire matches.

Some things I have noted over the years.

Shoot twice?  The double tap is the standard.  My rule is a triple tap.  2 to the chest, one to the head.  If the target has body armor then the double tap to the chest will hurt like hell, disorient and possibly disable.  2 taps and target fall down.  Third tap makes sure the target does not get back up.

Your stance position is important.  Cover and concealment saves your life.  NEVER shoot over the top of your cover.  Always shoot from the side of it.  People react to verticle movement quicker than lateral.  They also tend to scan horizontaly and will detect a verticle movement.

In close and/or suprised?  Then the targets stance is important.  If the targets left foot is forward  and the target is using a two handed pistol grip, then you want to move to your right and vice versa.  Try it out.  Take a pistol grip stance with your left foot forward.  Pivot your sight picture to the right.  You can swing almost 90 degrees.  To the left you can swing only about 45 degrees.

A target with a rifle and left foot forward works just the reverse.  The rifleman can swing 90 plus degrees to his left and only about 45 degrees to his right.

All of these assume the target does not change his stance while traversing on you.

My final word on the subject.  I am having too much fun in the civil liberties thread.

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by Sandman
US Marine Corps Rules for Gunfights

1. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
2. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.
3. Have a plan.
4. Have a back-up plan, because the first one probably won't work.
5. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone
you meet.
6. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun whose caliber does
not start with a "4."
7. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is
cheap. Life is expensive.
8. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend.
(Lateral & diagonal preferred.)
9. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.
10. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.
11. Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the
one you lose.
12. In ten years, nobody will remember the caliber, stance,
or tactics. They will remember who lived.
13. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating.

Navy SEALS Rules For Gunfights

1. Look very cool in sunglasses.
2. Kill every living thing within view.
3. Return quickly to looking cool in latest beach wear.
4. Check hair in mirror.

US Army Rangers Rules For Gunfights

1. Walk in 50 miles wearing 75 pound ruck while starving.
2. Locate individuals requiring killing.
3. Request permission via radio from "Higher" to perform killing.
4. Curse bitterly when mission is aborted.
5. Walk out 50 miles wearing a 75 pound ruck while starving.

Army Rules For Gunfights

1. Select a new beret to wear
2. Sew combat patch on right shoulder
3. Change the color of beret you decide to wear

US Air Force Rules For Gunfights

1. Have a cocktail
2. Adjust temperature on air-conditioner
3. See what's on HBO
4. Determine "what is a gunfight"
5. Request more funding from Congress with a "killer" Power Point presentation
6. Wine & dine 'key' Congressmen, invite DoD & defense industry executives
7. Receive funding, set up new command and assemble assets
8. Declare the assets "strategic" and never deploy them operationally
9. Tell the Navy to send the Marines

US Navy Rules For Gunfights

1. Go to Sea
2. Drink Coffee
3. Watch porn
4. Send the Marines

[Hangtime]

Your stance position is important. Cover and concealment saves your life. NEVER shoot over the top of your cover. Always shoot from the side of it. People react to verticle movement quicker than lateral. They also tend to scan horizontaly and will detect a verticle movement.

An interesting point.. and one my buddy with the pile of pistols harped on. I asked him to point out some 'cover' on the terrain we were shooting over. He pointed out a downed tree. I opened up with the FAL; aimed fire, 5 rounds, 3 seconds.

When we walked out and looked at and behind the tree his deamnor became a mite somber. Noticing this, I smiled and very quitely said "Jerry, there is no such thing as 'battlefield cover' when your adversary has a 1st or 2nd generation battle rifle. You'd better be behind armor plate before you engage him and not miss your first pistol shot because your rifleman adversary will simply kill you by shooting right through your 'cover' or 'concealment'... cement blocks, trees, walls and car fenders are useful concelament but they are NOT 'cover'.  You can hide from a modern 3rd generation 5.56mm military carbine, but there's no hiding from a .308, 30-06 or 7.62x54r battle rifle.. "

[SFRT - Frenchy]

 Sandman.

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.

... is cute, but you "always run out of bullets before you run out of enemies".

[2Slow]

Originally posted by Hangtime
An interesting point.. and one my buddy with the pile of pistols harped on. I asked him to point out some 'cover' on the terrain we were shooting over. He pointed out a downed tree. I opened up with the FAL; aimed fire, 5 rounds, 3 seconds.

When we walked out and looked at and behind the tree his deamnor became a mite somber. Noticing this, I smiled and very quitely said "Jerry, there is no such thing as 'battlefield cover' when your adversary has a 1st or 2nd generation battle rifle. You'd better be behind armor plate before you engage him and not miss your first pistol shot because your rifleman adversary will simply kill you by shooting right through your 'cover' or 'concealment'... cement blocks, trees, walls and car fenders are useful concelament but they are NOT 'cover'.  You can hide from a modern 3rd generation 5.56mm military carbine, but there's no hiding from a .308, 30-06 or 7.62x54r battle rifle.. "

Your observations are quite true.  When I am using concealment it is to hide until I am ready to engage or ambush.

If the enemy is reconing by fire, well then you may be very well screwed.  If he is reconing by fire, then he suspects you are there and he does not care that you know he is coming.

Final, really final word.

[Hangtime]

I train Riflemen in the fine art of 'Flee'...

That means that they stay outta view and before movement in injun country that they have lines of egress as well worked out as lines of approach and fields of fire. They train to disengage and retire quickly when the adversary is less than 200 yards from the muzzel. The strengths of the battle rifle are in range, hitting power and optics. The mission of a Rifleman is to dominate or control movement on terrain 200- 600 yards plus OUT. If the threat is closer your advantage is lost.

Axiom.. "keep your Distance, Evaluate the terrain for threats, Act on movement, Disengage quickly"  (DEAD)

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
 Sandman.

2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.

... is cute, but you "always run out of bullets before you run out of enemies".

Rare occurance if the shooter has appropriate skill with his weapon and competent training. 60 rounds for a bolt action, 120 for magazine fed semi-auto rifles, and 3 clips per handgun are requiste minimums for expected hostile encounters for a soldier.  A single mag in Laz's or GTO's .45acp's would be enuff for the trip down to the bank or 7-11. Most civilians with legal CC handguns can shoot better than yer average cop or a soldier.. only because he actually trains himself how to use it effectively, and shoots far more often in a range enviornment. Muscle memory is LOST quickly.. shooting regularly at a range keeps the muscles trained and as a result the average civilan shooters instincts become chillingly lethal.

[Dago]

I thought some of these rules were included in the Marines killing rules?

1) Ask Army for some equipment to kill enemy with

2) Send in many Marines directly at the enemy, you send enough, at least one should survive to kill the enemy

3) Help Hollywood make a movie about how you killed the enemy

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Hangtime
I'm armed every moment of my life.. even in the crapper  

[Gh0stFT]

we dont need that rules, we are nit the "wild west"!
Europe & other countrys are decades behind what happens
in the US right now, the crime, the shooting and that,
at least i heard that from people from the US.

[JTs]

having been a member of the brownwater navy 07/70 thru 05/71 and being one of the people who got to pick up the army or marines so they didnt have to walk out or provide cover for the sar guys so they could get to the air force my prefered weapon of choice for a gun fight was the M134 gatling gun 7.62 cal with 7000 rounds.

 we had two rules.

number 1. kill all the bad guys.
number 2. come home for a beer

the gun i slept with and took to the crapper was the winchester M1897 trenchgun

[Tarmac]

Originally posted by Gh0stFT
we dont need that rules, we are nit the "wild west"!
Europe & other countrys are decades behind what happens
in the US right now, the crime, the shooting and that,
at least i heard that from people from the US.

Decades? About 1 decade since the mess in Yugoslavia.  It's ok though, your governments will save you... just like they saved the people in Srebrenica, right?