Author Topic: Lazer Buff guns (Read 5229 times)

Delirium · « **Reply #15 on:** January 22, 2006, 02:02:30 AM »

Unless its an rare nose to nose merge co alt with buffs, I don't even bother with them.

My P38 is too big a target and soaks up pilot wounds like a sponge.

I'm not sure what HTC could do but approaching a buff from anything behind the 3-9 line is suicide right now

Delirium · « **Reply #16 on:** January 22, 2006, 02:05:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by RTSigma
attack from positions of superiority. To do so otherwise is the mark of a impatient and amatuer pilot.

No, it is the mark if a pilot that wants to furball and some moronic buff dweeb is heading to ruin the fun needs to be downed.

Then again, that is just my opinion.

Saxman · « **Reply #17 on:** January 22, 2006, 03:34:29 AM »

What angle are you taking there, Del? If that "buff dweeb" is going for strats/hangars, then he's more or less doing what his plane is intended for (albeit at SIGNIFICANTLY lower alt than the mission calls for) and I don't think there's anything wrong with it (ducks from the hail of stones hurled by the furballers). Or are you talking about guys that intentionally up Buff formations in a furball and bulldoze their way through the center of the fight?

Delirium · « **Reply #18 on:** January 22, 2006, 03:50:53 AM »

Just tired of finding a nice fight, only to have high alt buffs pinpoint bomb every FH at a field, with their 'easy mode' bombing model. I find myself stalling out nose high trying to kill the buffs to maintain the fight.

I do have some sympathy, killing the FH,BH, and other stuff at a field is the only way they can affect gameplay. There is simply nothing else worthwhile bombing, even HQ can be repaired easily enough, and a single formation isn't enough to drop HQ.

Saxman · « **Reply #19 on:** January 22, 2006, 04:05:39 AM »

Well, it should really be a warning when the furballers start coming in that MAYBE they're preceeding something bigger and that it might be a good idea for a couple guys to grab some alt and range out from the field. Just look how easy it is to drag an entire base's defenses down to the deck to mob just two bandits.

gatt · « **Reply #20 on:** January 22, 2006, 04:12:24 AM »

Dead horse. HiTech explained many times that there is no real issue about buff guns accuracy/convergence/range/lethality and actually it seems he never changed anything about it.

This is a part of AH2 we probably have to learn to deal with. I'm not happy with it, tho. Gaming concession? I dunno, however IMO, the whole buff thing is one of the less realistic ones: diving level bombers, bombing accuracy, bombing run speeds, bat manoeuvers at high alt, gunners lethality ... name it.

P.S.: FWIW, AI gunners in Warbirds had the same, if not worst, unreal lethality/accuracy ...

CHECKERS · « **Reply #21 on:** January 22, 2006, 04:27:39 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by wetrat
They haven't updated the B17/other B-buffs models yet, have they? (I dunno, buffs are ZZZZZZZ, haven't been in one in years). If not, let's hope they redo them for CT and fix the lazer taggers. I'd rather fight 3 la7's than fly into a gazillion AI-aimed lazer taggers trying to peg me between the eyes.

.......

Lets hope they fix them in the Main Arena too ...

Kweassa · « **Reply #22 on:** January 22, 2006, 05:49:49 AM »

Here's a recent thread about this subject that was posted at the Wishlist forum:

Buff guns

For a shorter version of my tests and quick analysis on that thread; simply put, the buff guns are shotguns. Remember HT's classic explanation on how dispersion actually increases the chance to hit. In most cases, the chance to hit itself is meaningless because usually dispersion means that the bullets are ungrouped and random.

However, what happens if you aren't firing just 4~6 50cals like on the fighters, but an awesome barrage of 15~20 50cals firing at once, at enhanced kinetic power due to relative direction of travel (running into the bullet)?

The end result: Our buff are, in effect, firing shotguns with 20 x 50calibre barrels, at a rate of 800 rounds per minute. The buff guns converge at 500 yards, but at 800~1000yards the dispersion pattern from three buffs cover an area that is about 100 yards tall x 500 yards wide.

...

Like the old gunnery issues, this is a problem of techincal possibility versus situational probability. Is it possible for all gunners who have angle, on three individual bombers, to fire at a same target at exactly the same time?
Sure it's possible. But I'm not gonna bet any money on that it ever happened in real life. It is highly improbable.

Add in the fact that the buff guns shoot through each other - which negates the fighter tactics of "peeling the onions", hitting the bombers on the outside first. The buffs shoot guns through the drones. You can't approach at an angle where only a few guns are pointed at you at a given time. Just aim it right and all bullets will pass through their own buffs and hit you.

Frankly, it's bullshi*, if you ask me. It's got nothing to do with whether one can kill a buff or not. Morph isn't complaining because he can't shoot a buff down. He's complaining because the way they shoot guns is bullshi*, pure and simple.

CHECKERS · « **Reply #23 on:** January 22, 2006, 06:10:22 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kweassa
Here's a recent thread about this subject that was posted at the Wishlist forum:

Buff guns

For a shorter version of my tests and quick analysis on that thread; simply put, the buff guns are shotguns. Remember HT's classic explanation on how dispersion actually increases the chance to hit. In most cases, the chance to hit itself is meaningless because usually dispersion means that the bullets are ungrouped and random.

However, what happens if you aren't firing just 4~6 50cals like on the fighters, but an awesome barrage of 15~20 50cals firing at once, at enhanced kinetic power due to relative direction of travel (running into the bullet)?

The end result: Our buff are, in effect, firing shotguns with 20 x 50calibre barrels, at a rate of 800 rounds per minute. The buff guns converge at 500 yards, but at 800~1000yards the dispersion pattern from three buffs cover an area that is about 100 yards tall x 500 yards wide.

...

Like the old gunnery issues, this is a problem of techincal possibility versus situational probability. Is it possible for all gunners who have angle, on three individual bombers, to fire at a same target at exactly the same time?
Sure it's possible. But I'm not gonna bet any money on that it ever happened in real life. It is highly improbable.

Add in the fact that the buff guns shoot through each other - which negates the fighter tactics of "peeling the onions", hitting the bombers on the outside first. The buffs shoot guns through the drones. You can't approach at an angle where only a few guns are pointed at you at a given time. Just aim it right and all bullets will pass through their own buffs and hit you.

Frankly, it's bullshi*, if you ask me. It's got nothing to do with whether one can kill a buff or not. Morph isn't complaining because he can't shoot a buff down. He's complaining because the way they shoot guns is bullshi*, pure and simple.

YEP, Exactley.....it's BS.., But I gota wonder if it can be coded to
to correct the guns so they will not fire thru or so that they shut down when aimed at the droans in the bommer formation ? ........ I do not know squat about code or the magic that the HTC crew works with .... But I can speculate that it could be a far bigger POS to fix.....? with far more problems than it seems ?.

MrRiplEy[H] · « **Reply #24 on:** January 22, 2006, 07:32:58 AM »

I've complained about this exact thing too. OTOH in MA it's bearable.. in TOD unthinkable.

gatt · « **Reply #25 on:** January 22, 2006, 08:07:38 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by CHECKERS
YEP, Exactley.....it's BS.., But I gota wonder if it can be coded to
to correct the guns so they will not fire thru or so that they shut down when aimed at the droans in the bommer formation ? ........ I do not know squat about code or the magic that the HTC crew works with .... But I can speculate that it could be a far bigger POS to fix.....? with far more problems than it seems ?.

Simple, allow firing only from the manned gun. Or allow more than 2 crew per buff.

Masherbrum · « **Reply #26 on:** January 22, 2006, 08:10:13 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by outbreak
Bombers are to accurate in this game, Come in from the 6 and ur dead, come in at there 9 and heh ur lucky if ur alive, come in at their 12 and maybe. Come in from Below Possible come in from Above at an angle and most possible if in a good plane. Other than that ur Screwed in a 109.

Only good Buff killin 109 is the K4 with its 30mm, Put one of them in the wing root and it has no wing =].

If you die coming in from the 3 O' or 9 O' it's the Indian not the arrow. The EASIEST method I have found, is to do what the Abbeville Kids did in WWII: HO them. After the said HO pass, I climb, dive, and came up from underneath. Front and belly are the weak points of a buff, regardless of the ball turret. Sides are the next weakest. Coming in from near vertical dive on top makes it tough for the Buff gunner to aim. IE, when you come in from a shalow angle, you are an easier target. Hence, the STEEPER the angle, the harder it is to get kilt.

Now, as for Morpheus's CONCERN (not a whine by ANY stretch of the word), I totally agree with this. I don't understand why lethality can be dialed down a notch. I agree with Kwe that the guns act like Shotguns.

Karaya

Apar · « **Reply #27 on:** January 22, 2006, 09:16:14 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by wetrat
They haven't updated the B17/other B-buffs models yet, have they? (I dunno, buffs are ZZZZZZZ, haven't been in one in years). If not, let's hope they redo them for CT and fix the lazer taggers. I'd rather fight 3 la7's than fly into a gazillion AI-aimed lazer taggers trying to peg me between the eyes.

DITTO !

I gave up defending against Buff attacks because of the ridicules accuracy and lethality.

One of the reasons why I'm not looking forward to TOD is the vision of having to fly my K4 or A8 into a wall of AI laser guided .50's.

You have a higher survivability chance flying ur plane through a cloud of slugs from a close in weapon system like Phalanx or Goalkeeper then a 3 formations B17 or B24.

MrRiplEy[H] · « **Reply #28 on:** January 22, 2006, 09:48:31 AM »

When a lone fighter has a higher chance of survival against an enemy fighter compared to a single enemy bomber, something is wrong.

RTSigma · « **Reply #29 on:** January 22, 2006, 10:04:58 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by SuperDud
WOOOWOOOOOOOOO right on Sigma! I know it's when I'm at my wisest!!!

BTW, how goes it:)

Heeeeeeeeeeey Dud, guess whos coming back to the skies?

On the topic though, maybe the guns are a little laser-trained, but theres just one guy controlling them. Teaming up with a pal or another can warrant equal amount of kills or an extra one.