Author Topic: A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..  (Read 2411 times)

Offline Kweassa

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A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..
« on: January 21, 2006, 08:05:19 PM »
Been flying Axis vs Allied for two days - and I admit it's been the most fun I've had in AH for months. Flying in the MA with a lot of people is fun. But all the hangar busting... chasing around 380mph deck planes.. knocking out buffs 2k above ground... gets just lame sometimes.

 The year is still early in the war in the AvA. The Battle of Britain is raging.. and the planes are perfectly matched up. However, I seem to notice a small tendency that usually at equal numbers, the RAF are a bit hard-pressed.

 So, for anybody new to the AvA arena, the Battle of Britain, here's a bit of a tip to help you out..



1. Pilot Quality

 Without false praise, I dare say the general quality of the pilots is higher in the Luftwaffe this setup. Some excellent dedicated 109 pilots are flying there. There is no shame in acknowledging a great enemy - the Luftwaffe a higher number of skilled pilots.

 There is a number of reasons for this. Like mentioned many of the Axis pilots in the current AvA year (1940, is it?), are dedicated Luftwaffe pilots. They are very much used to the plane they are flying. On the other hand, for a bit obvious reason, most of the "light users" seem to prefer the RAF - which usually brings out a problem in pilot quality. Not necessarily the flying skill itself, but rather, a general "discipline" seems to be lacking.

 RAF pilots, try to move in a group, and fight as a group... and even more importantly, retreat as a group. The English Channel is very narrow. You don't have enough time to fight alone, shoot down many enemies, and return alone.

 Contact each other a lot. Check-6s are a must give.


2. Get out of the "MA-Spit" mindset

 While the Spitfire MkIa does outturn the E-4, it does not as handily outturn it as in the latter models. The Bf109E-4, in this timeline, under right hands, can literally hang with a Spitfire easily in the turns. Not to mention that they have cannons. They have the ability to take quick snapshots as kills, but the RAF Spitfires and Hurricanes need a continuous barrage of 30calibre machine guns.

 This is where the problem starts. Since the Spitfire is such an excellent plane, it is so often that the enemy 109E is just out of your grasp. You follow him in turns, land a few pings, but don't see the results. This makes you even more determined, as you feel you are inches away from victory.

 However, this is when the Luftwaffe strikes hard. They've got cannons. They've got the climb. They've got the dive. Your "Spit mentality"urges you to follow every 109 you meet down to the deck, and duke it out.... but as soon as you are down low, enemy reinforcements will arrive.

 Remember, your Spitfires don't have the Hispano cannons yet. You can't get quick kills as you'd desire. If a 109 escapes down low, and you are engaged in a dead-lock combat, the chances are it may take a very long time to land enough shots to finally shoot him down. It is at that moment the higher 109s will come down and strike at you.

 Resist the urge. Keep a close eye on radar readings, and prepare yourselves for the next wave, instead of get killed over a single kill every wave. Fly the Spitfires like a 109 - being able to turn better, doesn't mean you have to show that off every time you meet an enemy.

 Alt is your friend, target fixation is your enemy.


3. Firing discipline

 It seems to me generally the RAF pilots are lacking in firing discipline. In the MA I'm used to flying the 109s with 30mm cannons, so flying upto 100yards distance, and maneuvering/shooting at that distance comes quite natural to me. I don't have a spectacular hit rate, but it works.

 But in AvA, I've seen quite a few RAF pilots who just simply fire from way too long a distance. The BoB we are flying in, have perfectly matched planes in everyway, and usually the combat ranges are very small compared to the latter day planes. Shooting and killing is achieved at 200 yards or less. The further the range grows, the less effective your gunnery - and having 30cal guns wing mounted certainly doesn't help.

 Set the convergence to 250 yards. Resist the MA-Spit urge. Keep on maneuvering, and when you see that one chance, close range, enemy plane right up at your nose, then you pull the trigger - a powerful, long burst at a distance where your enemy cannot maneuver away.

 Anything other than that, will merely cause but a pilot wound, or a punctured radiator on the 109s and 110s... all of which will draw you into a long chase, where you will be ambushed and hunted down.

 Maneuver, land your shots, if the enemy doesn't go down as you planned, and is going into an escaping dive, don't follow him.


4. 110s aren't easy

 Despite the historical outcome, 110s are not easy planes. The reason the 110s were having bad times in the historical BoB was that they were confined to close-escort duties and deprived of much needed freedom of combat. However, our AvA 110s do not have such restrictions. When a skillful pilot uses the 110s with enough altitude and speed advantage, they are the terrors of the skies, working in close cohesion with the E-4s,
often employed to the task of finishing up a plane which the E-4 set up nicely.

 Do not take them as easy kills. Do not go Head-On with them. In many cases the 110s could actually be more dangerous than the E-4s flying around, since quite often a very skilled pilot may be flying it.


5. Fighting the E-4s

 The 109E-4 and the SpitI is an almost perfect match. The 109 climbs better, dives better, and has greater firepower. The SpitI is faster, and maneuvers better.

 A typical move the 109 pilots will use, when being chased by a Spitfire, is the 0G dive. They push the controls to put the plane into a dive at 0 gravity, a state which a Spitfire or a Hurricane cannot follow due to its carburetor problems. If there is plenty of altitude below both of you, then the Spitfire or the Hurricane may utilize a slight roll to bank the plane, so that you can push positive Gs to go into a dive, instead of negative Gs.

 The negative G problem, in some cases, could actually be used as an advantaged when can be controlled wisely. After all, it can be used as an instant air-brake to cause an overshoot.

 However, one thing to avoid is being too harsh in controls, and going into bad reversals or stalls - at which state the plane will be put under prolonged state of negative Gs, which will bleed your speed too much.



 Overall, contrary to what usually happens in the MA, in the Battle of Britain timeline, here in AvA, it is the Spitfires and Hurricanes that need even more teamwork than the 109s or 110s. The largest problem need to be overcome is the lack of firepower causing a prolonged chase. If your shots alone cannot do it, you always have your friends nearby who can put some more bullets in it.

Offline Krusty

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A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2006, 08:22:55 PM »
Other than the info on the 110 I think you are spot on! The 110 is NOT an easy kill, as you have mentioned, but I don't think that's because of the restrictions placed on it by the LW. Rather I think this is because the plane is over-modeled in AH, but regardless, it's a tough cookie to crack!!

If you get a top-down shot into the glass greenhouse you can cause instant pilot kills or pilot wounds, which will help you.

Offline 1K3

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A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2006, 09:10:52 PM »
that's a very nice in-depth analysis!:cool:

(im not subscibed to premium arenas yet and i can't wait to aid the RAF:D)

Offline Kweassa

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A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2006, 09:22:50 PM »
How's it overmodelled when our Spitfire out everything's it except firepower and dive?

 
 A prime example of the lack of discipline happened just today. A Luftwaffe mission of Ju88s were inbound. Frankly, it was well executed - the bombers went in forward, and just as our interceptors were arriving, the 109 escorts arrived higher and jumped us all.

 The way they were flying, we also should have prepared an 'escort team' of Spitfires, and 'interceptor team' of Hurricanes. However the result was all of as arrivied one by one to the bombers, and got shot down one by one. Not a single formation decimated, only one or two bomber losses.

 Those who had enough alt on the buffs and escorts, still chose to plain dogfight the escorts. On the contrary, the 109 escorts were disciplined, chasing down our RAF fighters only when necessary.

 
 Basically, it was a hands-down defeat. Plain and simple, no excuses. Stopping large formations of Ju88As is possible - people have done it before. We can't complain just complain all day about the guns being crap.

 It doesn't have to be necessarily a military level joint operation.

 All people need, is just a basic mindset to work with each other, instead of work against one another, even in a same team, as one might do in MA.

 
 
 If things like this keep on happening, the only time Allied side will ever shine, is when they got the best and fastest planes around.

Offline 1K3

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A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2006, 09:35:50 PM »
...our Spitfire out everything's it except firepower and dive?

Our new SPIT 1 is based on BoB specs, they used 100 octane fuel instead of 87 octane used in pre-war years.  End result ---> SPIT 1 is faster than 109 at sea level and all the way up to 10,000 feet.

Offline Wolfala

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A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2006, 09:52:34 PM »
Well, if yesterday was the LW professionalism day - RAF whooped the **** out of ya today. As far as the LW34 vs RAF missions were concerned.


RAF organized Spit escorts to take fighters only while the Hurri's rolled in on the 88s.

Big difference a day makes. And there were 40 + JU88 flights within a cloud of 109's and 110s.

Reference todays unedited screen caps:

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=169319


the best cure for "wife ack" is to deploy chaff:    $...$$....$....$$$.....$ .....$$$.....$ ....$$

Offline Kweassa

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A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2006, 10:20:39 PM »
Interesting note on SpitIs and HurriIs:


1) as you all know, the carburetor deprives fuel supply to engine at -Gs.

2) usually, when +G is attained the engine restarts.

3) HOWEVER, when the Spitfire/Hurri enters -G under certain conditions, the engine will totally quit

4) one point I've found out, is when a Spit1/Hurri1 goes into a very long vertical.. and then stalls out at the top. There is a momentary -G on the top of the vertical, when the Spit/Hurri 'floats' for a second, tilting on its backside - at this moment, the engine will quit. Totally quit.

5) If the plane remains inverted on its backside too long for this state, it enters an inverted free-fall - impossible to start engine. No escape except bailing out.

6) Therefore, when going into a very long, low-speed vertical, the Hurri1/Spit1 must try to flip over ASAP.

7) I think one may exploit this move in the 109s, by luring RAF fighters into a long vertical inclined towards the backside of the plane. If the Spit1/Hurri1 follows it in that state, at some point, the engine will quit.

Offline Sable

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A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2006, 01:27:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Interesting note on SpitIs and HurriIs:

7) I think one may exploit this move in the 109s, by luring RAF fighters into a long vertical inclined towards the backside of the plane. If the Spit1/Hurri1 follows it in that state, at some point, the engine will quit.


This is a very good point - in the MA with the heavily armed late war fighters catching someone hanging in the vertical is normally a guaranteed kill.  But in the SpitI/HurrI it's generally a bad position as you often can't kill even with a good sustained burst, it hangs YOU up as a target for the 109s wingman who can kill you easily in that situation, and can result in the slide kweassa describes as well as an unrecoverable inverted spin with a dead engine.

Offline Loddar

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A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2006, 01:45:45 AM »
More interesting things

1.
Luftwaffe and RAF don't have Goons to capture bases. So RAF take a
defensiv and Luftwaffe are in offensiv play but don't get timid to Luftwaffe
horde. They only want to play with RAF, they cannot capture anything.

2. Luftwaffe have the only Buff (to that time, hope the He111 get modeled)
and the Ju88 is very hard to kill with cottonballguns RAF have.

3. 110s are the really killers. They turn very good in hand of a skilled pilot
and habe no ammoproblems as the 109 have and fly much longer over the
english coast.

4. Don't get influenced what you hear about BOB. 109s and 110s don't
do the same as in BOB. They are not slow and low to protect buffs and get
easy shot down. The zooming and fly why faster than RAF.

Offline Krusty

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A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2006, 01:34:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
How's it overmodelled when our Spitfire out everything's it except firepower and dive?


Negative. 110 vs spit:

range: 110
manuverability (close in the flat turns but spit has advantage, but the 110 can loop much better than the spit) TIE
weaponry and ammo: 110
speed: 110
dive/climb: 110
views 360 degrees: 110 (LOVELY over-the-nose view when you move head up and forward).

So you basically have a plane that can fly faster than a spit1, climb better, turn almost as well, loop a lot better, has better flaps, has better guns (and nose mounted, as well!) and cannons (also nose mounted) and it's at least 15mph faster at all alts than the spit1 is, you get a show stopper's performance.

Without WEP a 110 can outrun a spit1 that is using wep. Not by much but it will pull ahead.

But in general performance and roll/turn/loop it's way over modeled. There's no way this plane would have been "slaughtered by the spitfires" as the historical counterpart was. Hell in a furball situation it kicks arse. In a squad vs squad situation it would be a juggernaught!

Offline Kweassa

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A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2006, 03:04:19 PM »
Quote
range: 110
manuverability (close in the flat turns but spit has advantage, but the 110 can loop much better than the spit) TIE
weaponry and ammo: 110
speed: 110
dive/climb: 110
views 360 degrees: 110 (LOVELY over-the-nose view when you move head up and forward).



 Wrong, Krusty.

*Speed

 The Bf110C-4b is faster than the SpitI by about 6~7mph at deck. This advantage lasts only upto 5k, with the speed difference decreasing linearly until 5k where both planes are the same. Above 5k the speed difference rapidly shifts towards the advantage of the Spitfire, which reaches top speed of 365mph around 18k, whereas the Bf110C-4 is around 340mph at that altitudue.

 Only after 23k is past, the 110 is starting to reach its FTH, and it starts outrunning SpitIs.. but even when the difference is maximal, the Bf110C-4 is only 6mph or so faster than the SpitI above 23k.

 6mph at deck is about the difference between the Fw190D and the La-7. Unless beginning from a co-e status, the La-7 cannot catch a Fw190D if it has but the slightest advantage in E.

* Climb

 No contest. Hands down SpitI upto 13k. 250fpm higher climb rate initially. upto 300fpm maximum at 8k.

 However, once 13k is reached the 110 gains a rapid climb advantage, as the inadequate high-alt performance of the Spitfires becomes a problem. The difference tops out at 20k or so, where the 110 has a 600fpm climb advantage over the Spitfire. But once over 20k, the difference closes down again as 110s rapidly lose climb, and at 28k the Spitfire outclimbs it again.

 If we limit realistic engagement alts from between 0 to 25k, the lower half is dominated by the Spitfire, and the upper half is dominated by the 110.
 
* Maneuverability

 The SpitfireI outturns the 110 with a 50m smaller radius. 50m shorter radius is about the equivalent of the difference between a Spit5 and a La-7 in turning... not to mention that the Spitfire also has the advantage of smooter handling, while the 110 is plagued with a potentially dangerous accelerated stall. Claiming the 110 loops better than the Spitfire is absurd.

 One aspect that limits the Spitfire is its carburetors, which makes it sensitive to -G conditions - and with sudden jinks or -G maneuvers the 110 has a certain possibility to outmaneuver a Spitfire, by entering that envelope and sucking up the 30cals until he forces an overshoot. But it is extremely unlikely it will work unless the 110 is a far better pilot than the Spit.

* Dive/Firepower

 The two aspects the 110 has an absolute advantage over, is in the dives and firepower. The -G problem limits the Spitfire from entering a quick dive and accleration, and a rolling entry into a dive is required. The 110 also has a concentrated load of cannons, which allows it to finish a fight as quick as possible, while Spitfires require a steady amount of dogfighting to finally bring the enemy down.


Quote
So you basically have a plane that can fly faster than a spit1, climb better, turn almost as well, loop a lot better, has better flaps, has better guns (and nose mounted, as well!) and cannons (also nose mounted) and it's at least 15mph faster at all alts than the spit1 is, you get a show stopper's performance.

 
 So what we basically have, is a plane that flies much slower than the Spit at most alt ranges, climbs better only at 13k+, no match in either turning or looping, but has better guns and dives - basically, about what we would expect from a BoB 110.

 Plus, one misinformed critic of the plane, too.

 How many of those you've claimed did you actually test out?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2006, 03:06:47 PM by Kweassa »

Offline Krusty

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A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2006, 05:48:48 PM »
last speeds I had recorded for AH (before spit1 got a 100 octane) put spit1 at 290 and 110c at 300 on the deck with WEP. Just checked them [the recorded numbers I have]. It feels a lot faster, probably due to acceleration (no recorded test on that, tho').

And as for loops: It's not absurd. You can say plane X loops better than plane Y. It is a definite benefit, and has to do with the horsepower to weight or some such. Consider the P38. EVERYBODY acknowledges it can loop well, and this isn't because of the conter-rotating props, it's because its' got two massively powerful engines and a light weight frame. I don't know all the calculations that go into proving it but consider that a p38 can out loop and out zoom a spit5 easily, despite being heavier and a larger target.

Same goes for the 110. It's a move that the spit1 just can't follow as well and it gives the 110 the advantage of simply pulling a loop and reacquiring the target. That's why I listed it.

Climb rate is close but I thought the 110 had the advantage? Will have to test that offline.

Turn is close enough that it means nothing. Couple that with the nose high "low G" problem with spit1 engines cutting out and the 110 becomes much more manuverable in the vertical. My logic is: If they are close in turning but the 110 is far superior in the vertical, 110 is "more manuverable" (more might not be much, but when I fly it I feel noticably more nimble, maybe it's just a mis perception).

Offline Shifty

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Re: A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2006, 07:34:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa


 The year is still early in the war in the AvA. The Battle of Britain is raging.. and the planes are perfectly matched up. However, I seem to notice a small tendency that usually at equal numbers, the RAF are a bit hard-pressed.

 


I agree with a lot of what you say. There are good pilots flying LW. The aircraft mathups are good.  I think the biggest problem for most the guys flying Allied is firepower. I've been flying with my conv set to 200 , and not firing to within 200 or less. The biggest problem for me is you have to spend too much time shooting for the kill. Even at 200 or less you have to spend way too much time glued to one guy to kill him. The longer your shooting at one and the more hits it requires to kill him..... The more vunerable you are to getting jacked by his wingman. Who's cannon will kill deal your plane a mortal wound in one good hit.

Here are the stats as of 8:30 PM EST Sunday.

Spit1 Vs Bf-109E4  Spit has 274 kills of the 109. The 109 has 528 Spit kills
Spit1 vs Gf110       Spit 156 kills of 110. The 110 has 307 Spit kills.

Hurri I vs 109E  Hurri 167 kills on 109s. 109s 280 kills of the Hurri
Hurri I vs 110    Hurri 101 kills on 110s. 110s 155 kills of the Hurri.

The LW guys are good, but their not that good.  Plus there are a lot of good sticks flying Allied. Many of them just as good as the guys flying LW. What you say about tactics is right on. Especially in light of the firepower situation. Just gotta hang in there until the King gets us some damn cannons.:D

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Online Shane

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A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2006, 09:36:50 PM »
Luftwaffe pie-lets are certainly more verbose on the BBS.


:aok
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Offline Big G

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A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2006, 10:00:52 PM »
Hey Kweasea
I know you (and I) usually fly the 109 in the MA (K4 for me), so after reading this thread, I'm going to sign up for some duty in the spits and hurris etc in BoB AvA:aok
If nothing else then flying the RAF planes will gain me some first hand knowledge of strengths/ weaknesess that I can exploit in the MA.
Bring on the mass raids by 88's I say !:aok

I hereby declare myself operational and ready for duty to knock out those pesky 109's et al:aok