A tip for the BoB Royal Airforce pilots..

[Big G]

Originally posted by Shifty
I agree with a lot of what you say. There are good pilots flying LW. The aircraft mathups are good.  I think the biggest problem for most the guys flying Allied is firepower. I've been flying with my conv set to 200 , and not firing to within 200 or less. The biggest problem for me is you have to spend too much time shooting for the kill. Even at 200 or less you have to spend way too much time glued to one guy to kill him. The longer your shooting at one and the more hits it requires to kill him..... The more vunerable you are to getting jacked by his wingman. Who's cannon will kill deal your plane a mortal wound in one good hit.

Here are the stats as of 8:30 PM EST Sunday.

Spit1 Vs Bf-109E4  Spit has 274 kills of the 109. The 109 has 528 Spit kills
Spit1 vs Gf110       Spit 156 kills of 110. The 110 has 307 Spit kills.

Hurri I vs 109E  Hurri 167 kills on 109s. 109s 280 kills of the Hurri
Hurri I vs 110    Hurri 101 kills on 110s. 110s 155 kills of the Hurri.

The LW guys are good, but their not that good.  Plus there are a lot of good sticks flying Allied. Many of them just as good as the guys flying LW. What you say about tactics is right on. Especially in light of the firepower situation. Just gotta hang in there until the King gets us some damn cannons.

Right, lets get up to alt and everyone flying has a wingman, or we stay in flights of fours and we attack as fours. In other words, four aircraft line astern each taking a pass at the 88, four passes will knock em down quick enough.
While we are doing that, our buddies will be keeping the 109's of our backs.
I think the whole key to this is staying in formation, attack as 1 and then leave, Nobody goes up alone and nobody gets left behind.
What you guys think ?

[StarOfAfrica2]

My first love will always be the 109.  That said, I still enjoy the Spit I and Hurri I, mainly because they are so underrated by folks who arent used to the -G engine cutouts.  So I spend more than my fair share of time in both of these planes, even in the MA.  Krusty, I have to side with Kweassa on this one.  The Spit I (considering the pilots being equal in skill and equally comfortable in their plane of choice) will handily deal with the 110 1v1.  As for vertical performance, one thing that might foster this illusion you have is that a 110 pilot very seldom lets himself get too slow, whereas the average Spit pilot is used to being slow.  Speed at the start makes all the difference in vertical maneuvers.  Also, once you have flown the Spit I and/or Hurri I for awhile, I can guarantee you will almost never cut out the engine, unless you intend to.  It's very easy to perform vertical manevuers, even at slow speeds, and rolls, and anything else you want to do by learning to use the rudders to compensate for your limited stick travel to keep you out of -G land.  Any maneuver that normally requires being inverted at low G, or uses negative Gs can be just as easily accomplished while maintaining positive G force throught the maneuver.  Aileron roll a Spit I and it will cut out.  Barrel roll it and it wont.  

Sure its not as nimble as its later brothers, but the Spit I is a very capable plane in the right hands.  Flown with teamwork like I've seen lately, especially paired with a Hurricane, its more than capable.  Its deadly.

[715]

So in summary: the 110 is not overmodelled at all and the 2:1 kill ratio it has over either the Spit I or Hurricane I is because us RAF pilots are stupid and incompetent.

OK.  Thanks for that analysis.

So since the 110 was actually so uber, history is wrong and it should not be removed in the next setup.  Maybe you should remove the 109 instead.

[StarOfAfrica2]

Originally posted by 715
So in summary: the 110 is not overmodelled at all and the 2:1 kill ratio it has over either the Spit I or Hurricane I is because us RAF pilots are stupid and incompetent.

OK.  Thanks for that analysis.

So since the 110 was actually so uber, history is wrong and it should not be removed in the next setup.  Maybe you should remove the 109 instead.

I think you rather misinterpreted what was being said.  The 110 is enjoying a good kill/death ration for several reasons, only a few of which have anything to do with pilot skill.  

1.  The 110 is partly so "uber" because its guns are nose mounted and it has cannons.  The 109E has wing mount cannons that are much more sensitive to convergence issues.  If the 110 pilot gets a snapshot opportunity, its likely to be lethal.

2.  Many of the people flying 110s in the arena regularly fly them, and are quite used to how they handle, thus can get the most out of them.  This isnt excatly a new setup for CT (AvA) regulars.  

3.  As Kweassa stated, many times new people coming into the arena gravitate toward the RAF and the Spitfire.  All dweebfire jokes aside, the spitfire is just plain easier to fly for the newer player than the 109.  This is what Kweassa was trying to point out.  Its not that the skill of the individual pilots is any less measured 1 on 1.  Its simply that the people who are flying full time in the 109s fly them ALL THE TIME.  Whereas those in the spits might fly the Spit I in an occasional Special Event or because they lost a bet.  Same goes for the 110 in this argument.  

4.  Many people who have never flown this type of matchup before come in with certain expectations regarding the performance of the 110, due to historical evidence and anecdotes.  What people often fail to take into consideration is the fact that the 110 was mostly used as bomber escort, and was stuck in a narrow area, alt, and performance band to do their jobs when enemy fighters began their sweeps.  Later in the BoB, the 109s would become hampered by the same rules, and their effectiveness would be cut as well.  The point of this digression is to say that the average person comes into this setup expecting certain things in the way of performance from the Bf 110, and they are usually given a very nasty surprise the first time they fight one because they underrate it.  Pilots here are under no constraint to fly their planes in a historical manner.

If you cant understand this, and/or still want to take this personally, I suggest you grow a thicker skin.  No one was insulting you or anyone else.  If thats your idea of insulting, I'm afraid you've lived a very sheltered life.  

Best of luck to you next outing.

[Krusty]

"one thing that might foster this illusion you have is that a 110 pilot very seldom lets himself get too slow, whereas the average Spit pilot is used to being slow."

Good point. Hadn't thought of that!

[Sable]

Having flown mostly RAF and mostly the Spit I so far, I have to agree with Star and Kweassa.  1v1 the Spit and Hurri can easily defeat the 110 in a dogfight.  I'm currently carrying a 17:5 k/d against them.  The times that they've killed me have been when I've gotten target fixated and let one catch me level, or when I've been hugely outnumbered and they BnZed me to death.  

Historically the 110 wasn't nearly as bad as it's made out.  They had a lot of sucess in 1939/1940 leading up to the BoB.  During the actual battle itself they continued to score well enough, but the losses they took in turn were disastrous.  For instance on August 13th 1940, the Zerstorer gruppen claimed 30 RAF fighters vs. 13 losses.  The highest scoring Zerstorer ace was up to 19 kills by the end of the battle.  Obviously there was some overclaiming, but they were at least scoring kills - these weren't the german version of the Bolton-Paul Defiant or something like that.  The problem was that the Zerstorer gruppen started the battle with about 240 serviceable aircraft, and had suffered nearly that many losses by Oct/Nov!  This at a time when the Luftwaffe was making no attempt to increase aircraft production or crew training.  The reason for the high losses was that the 110 couldn't outturn either British fighter except in exceptionally beneficial circumstances, and the majority of 110s in service during the BoB used the same DB601A engine as the 109, not the DB601N version we have in AH.  This meant that it's performance was a little lower at all altitudes, and then fell off dramatically at about 15,000ft.  Given that a great deal of the BoB dogfights were taking place at higher altitudes where the British Merlins were still producing good power, it would have been hard pressed to either catch or escape from the RAF fighters - especially the Spitfire.  Thus the reason why the 110s were forced to enter a defensive lufberry on many occasions.

I recently found this rather interesting quote from Capt Maurice R McLary of the 20th FG.  He was flying P-38Js with the 8th AF over europe in 1944.

"On the encounters I've had with the enemy's twin-engined aircraft, I have found that thy can turn much shorter than I had anticpated.  I've also had trouble in staying behind them - the tendency being to over-run them.  They usually try to out-turn you and in so doing, put their tail gunner in a good position.  I learned this the hard way - by having an engine shot out by an Me 110 tail gunner."

Maybe this shouldn't be too surprising when you consider that the 110G's wingloading is about 43 lbs/sq ft - competetive with the single engine fighters (and P-38) of 1944.  It just happened to also be much slower, and have a much worse rate of climb and roll then the competition.

The 110C on the other hand had a 36 lbs/sq ft wing loading - slightly more then the 109E and a lot more then the Spit I and Hurri I which explains why it is outturned so much more by it's contemporaries.

Both of these results match up well with Kweassa's turn tests - kinda makes me think HTC got this one right.

[Kweassa]

So in summary: the 110 is not overmodelled at all and the 2:1 kill ratio it has over either the Spit I or Hurricane I is because us RAF pilots are stupid and incompetent.

 If you put it that way, yes indeed - most of the Allied pilots I've seen are definately flying stupid and incompetent.

 I'm an Axis guy, but I try to help even out the situation everybit as possible. That being said, for the past few days I've been playing as the RAF - which would mean that everytime I log on, I was inlcined to move to the RAF to help out. People were just getting slaughtered over there.

 The depressing thing is, even the some of the better pilots were so often succumbing to the urge to chase down every plane they see. A lone 110 tangling with 2~3 Spitfires down low, and you'd definately see someone jumping into the fray. The problem is, the RAF, at least while we are limited to 30calibre weapons, do not have such luxury against the Luftwaffe. The Channel is very narrow - only about 5 minutes flight from Abbeville area. Enemy reinforcements come in by the minute. The fact that their planes having superior climb(109) and dives(109/110) is pretty deadly by itself, but letting them come overhead unmatched is even worse.

 A logical solution is to take the entire fight as a group, and not necessarily an individual. When 2~3 109s or 110s are tangling with 5~6 Spitfires and Hurricanes, they don't need the help. Sooner or later, they are gonna be able to shoot it down, or at least press it into a very hard situation, making them run towards home. What they need, is friendlies coming in to fight enemy reinforcements. Newly arrived planes at the scene, should be looking ahead and engaging enemy reinforcements arriving - not looking down and diving at the first opportunity they see and go dogfighting like mad - which usually ends up in a massacre of Spits and Hurricanes to high enemy 109s and 110s.

 However, everytime I up a plane, the guys who were with me at alt suddenly vanish. I search for them, and see that they are running in circles against a few 109s and 110s 100ft above water. It's usually that moment where new wave of 109s and 110s arrive. Now I'm torn - do I stay above and try to fight them all by myself? Or do I go head first into a certain-death where all the low Spit/Hurri buddies are now crying for help?

 If I hope for the best, and jump down to help friendlies, I'll end up right next to their grave, hammered and riddled by cannons from massive number of 109s and 110s coming in above us unchallenged.

 If I try to stay high and fight them alone, all my friendlies low are shot down. Soon, even the low 109s and 110s come crawling up, and my odds are like 7 to 1. I usually end up in the foremost place of the big, red conga line. Screaming towards home, hoping my WEP won't cut off before I reach English shores.

 
 So yeah, I'd definately say the RAF is usually flying incompetent and stupid. It's not necessarily the Luftwafe is superior in overall quality. They got a lot of good pilots, but the rest of the pilots are just as average as our own. However, the difference is that the LW guys know their 110s and 109s cannot turn with Hurris or Spits, and that usually forces them to keep a certain amount of discipline when engaging. However, being in such wonderful maneuvering planes, our poor RAF lads just love to go into the death spiral, and end up getting hounded by dozens of 109s on ther tail. The 109s force them to turn, the 110 comes in screaming and finishes them off.

 
 

OK. Thanks for that analysis.

So since the 110 was actually so uber, history is wrong and it should not be removed in the next setup. Maybe you should remove the 109 instead.

 More like the RAF are dunce, rather than 110 being uber.

 It's basically really simple.

 You go and fight certain way, and get shot down. Do you:

1) go in there, fight the same way, and get shot down again?
2) or go in there, try fight differently, and survive long enough to land kills?

 ....and the RAF, are currently choosing 1), for some reason.

 Death wish? I wouldn't know. I'm not originally an Allied guy. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that the way they are flying gets them killed... and yet they do it all over again, and again, and again, and again.

[Loddar]

Allies fly that way because they know nothing else than main arena crap
playing. But what could i do, only one playing none "kamikaze-first-come-
best-way-to-kill-many-people-and-nothing-happen-if-i-get-shot-down"
playing style.

I will tell you.

Most i am alone at alt facing 3 luftguys while my mates chasing a 109 diving to the deck home.

Why all those Spits and Hurris fly at the french coast ? Only to die when the
109s and 110 refuled come back and Waaaaaaaaaaagh again vs the Britcoast.

Stupid

[storch]

for the most part the allied players hang over the ack by the ports.  occassionally there were some great fights in mid channel.  I suppose it is what loddar said these guys only know MA horde mentality play.  give them time and hopefully they will play better in this arena.  it's funny to see 9 hurris/spits dive on a 110 engaged with two other spits it's even funnier when the 110 manages to shoot down 3 or 4 and still escape to land.  I saw N7 land 8 kills in a 109E-4 after one of those nasty furballs over the allied port.  I forgot to ask him but I'm sure it was at least 1 re-armed flight.

I know no one likes to told how to play but perhaps some friendly encouragement from interested participants will work towards curbing some of the dweebry.  If not this will soon be a mini MA and people will just leave, especially when we have endless hordes of spittards in the spitv and beyond.

[Phaser11]

Yep,
 This is the hardest flying I have to do in quite some time.  The old way of just diving in, guns a-blazing just does not work. Flying the Spit or Hurri, you have to work for every shot, (Notice I said shot, not kill).
 I have had 2 one on one shootouts this weekend. One with a JU87 and the other with a 110. The first one was with the 87, I had the alt, he was bombing strat targets. I said to my self, "Self this is going to be simple
.". Then I nosed over and the engine cutout. Rats, pull up, roll over, nose down zoom in on his 6. 500 out, guns, sprite,sprite,sprite nothing. Rats 303's pul up go over he is on my 6, rats, push over, engine cuts out, bullits flying past my plane, rats, roll over, go down pickup speed and extend. Yep I'm extending from a stuka. I look behind me and I see him in his aircraft laughing at me.
 Fine, get alt, turn around 200k, got him.

 Want to land 2 kills so I can see my name in lights! Not anymore, I'm just trying to stay alive to fight another day.

 I heard that the Americans will soon be sending some new equipment under something called Lend Lease. How about some of those tommy guns, you know, heaters, choppers. Something I can shoot a Gerry when I'm running from the JU87.

[Loddar]

Phaser11 you really see a Ju87 ?

Shocking ! When i was only at Friday and Saturday  i only saw hordes of 110s
and 109s and never catchable Ju88s. That isn't very nice. But, a luftguy told me,
that's AvA furball arena.

I am looking forward to the SpitV and HurriC and later on buffs. Payback time.

Hiding in the ack ? What do allies can do ? I told i am often alone with 3 luftguys
should i fight with cottonballs guns vs 20mm ? Am i mad ?

[Shifty]

Originally posted by storch
f  I saw N7 land 8 kills in a 109E-4 after one of those nasty furballs over the allied port.  I forgot to ask him but I'm sure it was at least 1 re-armed flight..

If anybody is going to land an 8 kill Bf-109E sortie I'd put my money on N7, or Eagler. I've run across Eagler twice this setup, and died twice. I've been lucky enough to be in another part of the sky when N7 is up. Wildesau seems to be the Green Heart with my number this setup.

The thing about N7 is he shoots as good as he flies. He doesn't make mistakes, and he doesn't miss. I can also see him getting kills when down to just the MG-17s.   I flew LW a little Sturday , and got a kill on a Hurri from D200 with MG-17s only. If I can do it once I figure N7 can probably do it 4 or 5 times.

I tagged along with the 4th FG last night and got into a good fight with JG54 off the coast. I managed to get a 109, and a 110, then found myself in the middle of a Bf-109, Bf-110, blizzard. Just when I was thinking I might actually get out of this thing....................... Bang , blood everywhere then the old Wildesau shot you down messege.

[soda72]

The 110 has some weak points too..  If you're not carefull when turning at a low speeds you can find yourself in stall were your plane slowly falls and can not move... Only way to recover is to turn off your engines and try to point the nose downwards.   If this happens at low alt, you're finished...  

[Shifty]

Originally posted by Loddar
Phaser11 you really see a Ju87 ?
 

I've encountered Ju-87s a couple of times. Plus numerous JU88s. The LW guys have been doing a good job of actually attacking the UK.

[Phaser11]

Yep,
 and it SHOULD BE HARD to win.

It was in the real war,

"Never have so few, given so much, for so many" or something like that.

The tieds of war are changing. We must hold out and stop the Gerrys from controling the sky's. Let the aces be aces, and the heros be us!